Thank you, John, for the gracious introduction. To Mike and Eric, thank you for hosting me. Thank you to all of you for receiving me. It is wonderful to be here. I want to also acknowledge Mark Strand, president of the Congressional Institute. To all the family members who are here and who have to put up with us for an elective office each and every day, thank you, because I know that's tough. 约翰，感谢你亲切的介绍。迈克、埃里克，谢谢你们接待我。感谢各位接纳我。很高兴能来这里。我还要向国会研究所所长马克·斯特兰德致意。感谢在座所有家人——你们每天都要忍受我们这些从事竞选公职的人，谢谢你们，因为我知道这并不容易。
I very much am appreciative of not only the tone of your introduction, John, but also the invitation that you extended to me. You know what they say, "Keep your friends close, but visit the Republican Caucus every few months." 约翰，我不仅感激你介绍时的话语，也感激你对我的邀请。常言道，"把朋友留在身边，但每隔几个月要去拜访一下共和党党团会议。"
Part of the reason I accepted your invitation to come here was because I wanted to speak with all of you, and not just to all of you. So I'm looking forward to taking your questions and having a real conversation in a few moments. And I hope that the conversation we begin here doesn't end here; that we can continue our dialogue in the days ahead. It's important to me that we do so. It's important to you, I think, that we do so. But most importantly, it's important to the American people that we do so. 我之所以接受你们的邀请来到这里，部分原因是我希望能与大家交流，而不只是对大家讲话。所以我很期待稍后回答你们的问题，进行一次真正的对话。我希望我们今天开始的对话不要止步于此；希望我们在未来日子里能够继续沟通。这对我很重要，我想对你们也很重要。但最重要的是，这对美国人民很重要。
I've said this before, but I'm a big believer not just in the value of a loyal opposition, but in its necessity. Having differences of opinion, having a real debate about matters of domestic policy and national security -- and that's not something that's only good for our country, it's absolutely essential. It's only through the process of disagreement and debate that bad ideas get tossed out and good ideas get refined and made better. 我之前说过，我不仅相信忠诚反对派的价值，也相信其必要性。在国内外政策和国家安全问题上存在分歧、进行真正的辩论——这不仅对我们国家有好处，更是绝对必要的。只有通过分歧与辩论的过程，坏主意才会被淘汰，好主意才能被完善、变得更好。
And that kind of vigorous back and forth -- that imperfect but well-founded process, messy as it often is -- is at the heart of our democracy. That's what makes us the greatest nation in the world. 那种热烈的来回交锋——那种并不完美但有根基的过程，虽然常常显得混乱——正是我们民主制度的核心。这正是使我们成为世界最伟大国家的根本。
So, yes, I want you to challenge my ideas, and I guarantee you that after reading this I may challenge a few of yours. I want you to stand up for your beliefs, and knowing this caucus, I have no doubt that you will. I want us to have a constructive debate. The only thing I don't want -- and here I am listening to the American people, and I think they don't want either -- is for Washington to continue being so Washington-like. 所以，是的，我希望你们挑战我的想法，我也保证读完之后可能会挑战你们的一些想法。我希望你们坚持自己的信念，而就我对这个党团的了解，我毫不怀疑你们会这么做。我希望我们进行建设性的辩论。我唯一不希望的——这一点我是在倾听美国人民的心声，我想他们也不希望——就是华盛顿继续像华盛顿那样行事。
I know folks, when we're in town there, spend a lot of time reading the polls and looking at focus groups and interpreting which party has the upper hand in November and in 2012 and so on and so on and so on. That's their obsession. 我知道，当我们身处华盛顿，那里的人花大量时间研读民调、关注焦点小组，揣摩哪个政党在11月和2012年占上风，如此种种。那是他们的执念。
And I'm not a pundit. I'm just a President, so take it for what it's worth. But I don't believe that the American people want us to focus on our job security. They want us to focus on their job security. I don't think they want more gridlock. I don't think they want more partisanship. I don't think they want more obstruction. They didn't send us to Washington to fight each other in some sort of political steel-cage match to see who comes out alive. That's not what they want. 我不是时评家。我只是个总统，所以这话值多少是多少。但我不认为美国人民希望我们关注自己的职位安全。他们希望我们关注他们的就业安全。我不认为他们希望看到更多僵局。我不认为他们希望看到更多党派之争。我不认为他们希望看到更多阻挠。他们送我们去华盛顿，不是要我们在某种政治铁笼赛中相互厮杀、看谁能活下来。那不是他们想要的。
They sent us to Washington to work together, to get things done, and to solve the problems that they're grappling with every single day. And I think your constituents would want to know that despite the fact it doesn't get a lot of attention, you and I have actually worked together on a number of occasions. There have been times where we've acted in a bipartisan fashion. 他们送我们去华盛顿，是要我们携手合作、办成事情、解决他们每天都在应对的问题。我想你们的选民也会希望知道，尽管这一点不怎么引人注目，但你们和我实际上已经在许多场合合作过。我们也曾以两党合作的方式行事。
And I want to thank you and your Democratic colleagues for reaching across the aisle. There has been, for example, broad support for putting in the troops necessary in Afghanistan to deny al Qaeda safe haven, to break the Taliban's momentum, and to train Afghan security forces. There's been broad support for disrupting, dismantling, and defeating al Qaeda. And I know that we're all united in our admiration of our troops. 我要感谢你们和民主党同僚跨越党派隔阂。例如，在向阿富汗增派必要部队以摧毁"基地"组织的避风港、打破塔利班势头、训练阿富汗安全部队方面，我们获得了广泛支持。在瓦解、 dismantle 和击败"基地"组织方面也获得了广泛支持。我知道，我们对部队的钦佩之情是一致的。
So it may be useful for the international audience right now to understand -- and certainly for our enemies to have no doubt -- whatever divisions and differences may exist in Washington, the United States of America stands as one to defend our country. 因此，让国际社会此刻了解——也让我们敌人毫无疑问——无论华盛顿存在怎样的分歧与差异，美利坚合众国在保卫国家时团结如一。
It's that same spirit of bipartisanship that made it possible for me to sign a defense contracting reform bill that was cosponsored by Senator McCain and members of Congress here today. We've stood together on behalf of our nation's veterans. Together we passed the largest increase in the VA's budget in more than 30 years and supported essential veterans' health care reforms to provide better access and medical care for those who serve in uniform. 正是同样的两党合作精神，使我得以签署由麦凯恩参议员和今天在座多位国会议员联署的国防合同改革法案。我们共同为国家的退伍军人挺身而出。我们携手通过了30多年来退伍军人事务部预算最大幅度的增长，并支持了必要的退伍军人医疗改革，为身穿制服的服役人员提供更好的就医机会和医疗照护。
Some of you also joined Democrats in supporting a Credit Card Bill of Rights and in extending unemployment compensation to Americans who are out of work. Some of you joined us in stopping tobacco companies from targeting kids, expanding opportunities for young people to serve our country, and helping responsible homeowners stay in their homes. 你们中的一些人也加入民主党阵营，支持《信用卡权利法案》，并延长了对失业美国人的失业补偿。你们中的一些人加入我们的行列，阻止烟草公司针对儿童、扩展年轻人服务国家的机会，并帮助负责任的房主保住自己的住房。
So we have a track record of working together. It is possible. But, as John, you mentioned, on some very big things, we've seen party-line votes that, I'm just going to be honest, were disappointing. Let's start with our efforts to jumpstart the economy last winter, when we were losing 700,000 jobs a month. Our financial system teetered on the brink of collapse and the threat of a second Great Depression loomed large. 所以我们有合作的过往。这是可能的。但正如约翰你提到的，在一些非常重大的事项上，我们看到了按党派立场投票的情况，坦率说，这令人失望。让我们从去年冬季我们重振经济的努力说起，当时我们每月失去70万个就业岗位。我们的金融体系摇摇欲坠、濒临崩溃，第二次大萧条的阴影笼罩着我们。
I didn't understand then, and I still don't understand, why we got opposition in this caucus for almost $300 billion in badly needed tax cuts for the American people, or COBRA coverage to help Americans who've lost jobs in this recession to keep the health insurance that they desperately needed, or opposition to putting Americans to work laying broadband and rebuilding roads and bridges and breaking ground on new construction projects. 我那时不明白，现在仍然不明白，为什么本党团反对向美国人民提供近3000亿美元急需的减税，反对通过COBRA覆盖帮助在经济衰退中失去工作的美国人保留他们急需的医疗保险，反对让美国人就业铺设宽带、重建道路和桥梁、开工新建项目。
There was an interesting headline in CNN today: "Americans disapprove of stimulus, but like every policy in it." And there was a poll that showed that if you broke it down into its component parts, 80 percent approved of the tax cuts, 80 percent approved of the infrastructure, 80 percent approved of the assistance to the unemployed. 今天CNN有个有趣的标题："美国人不赞成刺激方案，但喜欢其中每一项政策。"还有一项民调显示，如果将其分解为各组成部分，80%的人赞成减税，80%的人赞成基础设施建设，80%的人赞成对失业者的救助。
Well, that's what the Recovery Act was. And let's face it, some of you have been at the ribbon-cuttings for some of these important projects in your communities. Now, I understand some of you had some philosophical differences perhaps on the just the concept of government spending, but, as I recall, opposition was declared before we had a chance to actually meet and exchange ideas. And I saw that as a missed opportunity. 嗯，这就是《复苏法案》的内容。而且坦率说，你们中一些人出席过本社区这些重要项目的剪彩仪式。我理解，你们中一些人对政府支出这一概念或许存有哲学上的分歧，但据我所记，反对意见是在我们还没机会真正坐下来交流意见之前就宣告的。我把这视为一次错失的机会。
Now, I am happy to report this morning that we saw another sign that our economy is moving in the right direction. The latest GDP numbers show that our economy is growing by almost 6 percent -- that's the most since 2003. To put that in perspective, this time last year, we weren't seeing positive job growth; we were seeing the economy shrink by about 6 percent. 今天上午，我很高兴地向大家报告，我们看到了另一个经济朝正确方向发展的迹象。最新的GDP数据显示，我们的经济增速接近6%——这是2003年以来最快的。换个角度看，去年这个时候，我们没有看到正向的就业增长；我们看到的是经济萎缩约6%。
So you've seen a 12 percent reversal during the course of this year. This turnaround is the biggest in nearly three decades -- and it didn't happen by accident. It happened -- as economists, conservative and liberal, will attest -- because of some of the steps that we took. 所以今年全年出现了12个百分点的逆转。这是近三十年来最大的一次反转——而且绝非偶然。正如保守派和自由派经济学家都会证实的那样，它的发生是因为我们采取了一些措施。
And by the way, you mentioned a Web site out here, John -- if you want to look at what's going on, on the Recovery Act, you can look on recovery.gov -- a Web site, by the way, that was Eric Cantor's idea. 顺便说一下，约翰，你提到了一个网站——如果你想看看《复苏法案》的进展，可以上recovery.gov——顺便说一句，这个网站是埃里克·坎托的主意。
Now, here's the point. These are serious times, and what's required by all of us -- Democrats and Republicans -- is to do what's right for our country, even if it's not always what's best for our politics. I know it may be heresy to say this, but there are things more important than good poll numbers. And on this no one can accuse me of not living by my principles. 那么，问题就在这里。这是严肃的时刻，我们所有人——民主党人和共和党人——所要做的，是对国家正确的事，即使它不一定对政治最有利。我知道这样说可能被视为异端，但有些事情比漂亮的民调数字更重要。在这一点上，没人能指责我不践行自己的原则。
A middle class that's back on its feet, an economy that lifts everybody up, an America that's ascendant in the world -- that's more important than winning an election. Our future shouldn't be shaped by what's best for our politics; our politics should be shaped by what's best for our future. 让中产阶级重新站起来，让经济惠及所有人，让美国在世界舞台上蒸蒸日上——这比赢得选举更重要。我们的未来不应由什么对政治最有利来塑造；我们的政治应当由什么对未来最有利来塑造。
But no matter what's happened in the past, the important thing for all of us is to move forward together. We have some issues right in front of us on which I believe we should agree, because as successful as we've been in spurring new economic growth, everybody understands that job growth has been lagging. Some of that's predictable. Every economist will say jobs are a lagging indicator, but that's no consolation for the folks who are out there suffering right now. And since 7 million Americans have lost their jobs in this recession, we've got to do everything we can to accelerate it. 但无论过去发生了什么，对我们所有人来说，重要的是携手向前。我们眼前就有一些我认为我们应该达成共识的议题，因为尽管我们在刺激新经济增长方面很成功，但大家都明白就业增长一直滞后。这在某种程度上是可以预见的。每位经济学家都会说就业是滞后指标，但对于那些正在受苦的人来说，这并不是什么慰藉。自经济衰退以来，已有700万美国人失去工作，我们必须竭尽全力加速就业增长。
So, today, in line with what I stated at the State of the Union, I've proposed a new jobs tax credit for small business. And here's how it would work. Employers would get a tax credit of up to $5,000 for every employee they add in 2010. They'd get a tax break for increases in wages, as well. So, if you raise wages for employees making under $100,000, we'd refund part of your payroll tax for every dollar you increase those wages faster than inflation. It's a simple concept. It's easy to understand. It would cut taxes for more than 1 million small businesses. 所以，今天，按照我在国情咨文中所阐述的，我提议为小企业设立新的就业税收抵免。具体运作方式是这样的：雇主在2010年每新增一名员工，就可获得最高5000美元的税收抵免。他们也能从工资增长中获得税收优惠。所以，如果你给收入低于10万美元的员工加薪，我们会按你超出通胀率加薪的每一美元退还部分工资税。这是一个简单的概念，容易理解，将为100多万小企业减税。
So I hope you join me. Let's get this done. I want to eliminate the capital gains tax for small business investment, and take some of the bailout money the Wall Street banks have returned and use it to help community banks start lending to small businesses again. So join me. I am confident that we can do this together for the American people. And there's nothing in that proposal that runs contrary to the ideological predispositions of this caucus. The question is: What's going to keep us from getting this done? 所以我希望你们加入我。让我们把这件事做成。我希望取消对小企业投资的资本利得税，并拿出华尔街银行返还的部分救助资金，用于帮助社区银行重新向小企业放贷。所以请加入我。我有信心，我们可以携手为美国人民做成这件事。这项提案中没有任何内容与这个党团的意识形态倾向相悖。问题是：是什么会阻碍我们完成这件事？
I've proposed a modest fee on the nation's largest banks and financial institutions to fully recover for taxpayers' money that they provided to the financial sector when it was teetering on the brink of collapse. And it's designed to discourage them from taking reckless risks in the future. If you listen to the American people, John, they'll tell you they want their money back. Let's do this together, Republicans and Democrats. 我提议对全国最大的银行和金融机构征收适度的费用，以全额收回纳税人在金融体系濒临崩溃时提供给金融部门的资金。此举旨在阻止它们未来冒鲁莽的风险。约翰，如果你倾听美国人民，他们会告诉你他们要拿回自己的钱。让我们共和党人和民主党人共同完成这件事。
I propose that we close tax loopholes that reward companies for shipping American jobs overseas, and instead give companies greater incentive to create jobs right here at home -- right here at home. Surely, that's something that we can do together, Republicans and Democrats. 我提议关闭那些奖励企业把美国就业岗位转移到海外的税收漏洞，转而给企业更大的激励，让它们就在国内——就在国内——创造就业。这当然是我们共和党人和民主党人可以共同做到的事。
We know that we've got a major fiscal challenge in reining in deficits that have been growing for a decade, and threaten our future. That's why I've proposed a three-year freeze in discretionary spending other than what we need for national security. That's something we should do together that's consistent with a lot of the talk both in Democratic caucuses and Republican caucuses. We can't blink when it's time to actually do the job. 我们清楚，我们面临着遏制十年来不断增长、威胁我们未来的赤字的重大财政挑战。这就是为什么我提议除国家安全所需外，对可自由支配支出实施三年冻结。这是我们应该共同做的事情，与民主党党团和共和党党团中很多讨论是一致的。该真正动手时，我们不能退缩。
At this point, we know that the budget surpluses of the '90s occurred in part because of the pay-as-you-go law, which said that, well, you should pay as you go and live within our means, just like families do every day. Twenty-four of you voted for that, and I appreciate it. And we were able to pass it in the Senate yesterday. 到了这一步，我们都知道，90年代的预算盈余部分归功于"现收现付"法案，也就是说，量入为出、像家庭每天那样生活。你们中有24人投票支持了它，我对此表示感谢。昨天我们也在参议院通过了它。
But the idea of a bipartisan fiscal commission to confront the deficits in the long term died in the Senate the other day. So I'm going to establish such a commission by executive order and I hope that you participate, fully and genuinely, in that effort, because if we're going to actually deal with our deficit and debt, everybody here knows that we're going to have to do it together, Republican and Democrat. No single party is going to make the tough choices involved on its own. It's going to require all of us doing what's right for the American people. 但成立一个两党财政委员会以应对长期赤字的想法日前在参议院受挫。所以我将通过行政命令设立这样一个委员会，我希望你们充分、真诚地参与这一努力，因为如果我们真要解决赤字和债务问题，在座的每位都知道，我们必须共和党人和民主党人共同完成。任何单一政党都无法独自做出其中涉及的艰难抉择。这需要我们所有人都为美国人民做正确的事。
And as I said in the State of the Union speech, there's not just a deficit of dollars in Washington, there is a deficit of trust. So I hope you'll support my proposal to make all congressional earmarks public before they come to a vote. And let's require lobbyists who exercise such influence to publicly disclose all their contacts on behalf of their clients, whether they are contacts with my administration or contacts with Congress. Let's do the people's business in the bright light of day, together, Republicans and Democrats. 正如我在国情咨文演讲中所说，华盛顿不仅存在美元赤字，还存在信任赤字。所以我希望你们支持我的提案，让所有国会专项拨款在表决前公开。让我们要求那些施加影响的游说者，公开披露他们代表客户进行的所有接触，无论是与本届政府的接触还是与国会的接触。让我们在阳光下共同处理人民的事务，共和党人与民主党人一起。
I know how bitter and contentious the issue of health insurance reform has become. And I will eagerly look at the ideas and better solutions on the health care front. If anyone here truly believes our health insurance system is working well for people, I respect your right to say so, but I just don't agree. And neither would millions of Americans with preexisting conditions who can't get coverage today or find out that they lose their insurance just as they're getting seriously ill. That's exactly when you need insurance. And for too many people, they're not getting it. 我知道医疗保险改革问题已经变得多么激烈和有争议。我也将认真考虑医疗保健方面的想法和更好的方案。如果这里真的有人认为我们的医疗保险制度运作良好，我尊重你这样说的权利，但我就是不认同。数百万有既往病症的美国人今天无法获得保险，或者发现自己一患重病就失去保险，他们也不会认同。那恰恰是你最需要保险的时候。而对太多人来说，他们得不到。
I don't think a system is working when small businesses are gouged and 15,000 Americans are losing coverage every single day; when premiums have doubled and out-of-pocket costs have exploded and they're poised to do so again. I mean, to be fair, the status quo is working for the insurance industry, but it's not working for the American people. It's not working for our federal budget. It needs to change. 当小企业被狠宰，每天有1.5万美国人失去保险覆盖；当保费翻番、自付费用暴涨，并且还将继续如此时——我不认为这样的制度在正常运作。坦白说，现状对保险业有利，但对中国人民不利，对我们的联邦预算不利。它需要改变。
This is a big problem, and all of us are called on to solve it. And that's why, from the start, I sought out and supported ideas from Republicans. I even talked about an issue that has been a holy grail for a lot of you, which was tort reform, and said that I'd be willing to work together as part of a comprehensive package to deal with it. I just didn't get a lot of nibbles. 这是一个大问题，我们所有人都被召唤来解决它。正因如此，从一开始，我就主动寻找并支持来自共和党的想法。我甚至谈到过对你们很多人来说是"圣杯"的问题，也就是侵权法改革，并表示愿意作为综合方案的一部分共同努力解决它。只是我没有得到太多回应。
Creating a high-risk pool for uninsured folks with preexisting conditions, that wasn't my idea, it was Senator McCain's. And I supported it, and it got incorporated into our approach. Allowing insurance companies to sell coverage across state lines to add choice and competition and bring down costs for businesses and consumers -- that's an idea that some of you I suspect included in this better solutions; that's an idea that was incorporated into our package. 为有既往病症的未保险人群设立高风险池，这不是我的主意，是麦凯恩参议员的。我支持了它，并把它纳入了我们的方案。允许保险公司跨州销售保险，以增加选择和竞争、降低企业和消费者的成本——我怀疑这是你们一些人纳入"更好方案"中的想法；这个想法也被纳入了我们的方案。
And I support it, provided that we do it hand in hand with broader reforms that protect benefits and protect patients and protect the American people. A number of you have suggested creating pools where self-employed and small businesses could buy insurance. That was a good idea. I embraced it. Some of you supported efforts to provide insurance to children and let kids remain covered on their parents' insurance until they're 25 or 26. I supported that. That's part of our package. 我支持它，前提是我们同步进行更广泛的改革，保护保险待遇、保护患者、保护美国人民。你们中不少人建议设立让个体经营者和中小企业购买保险的池。这是个好主意，我采纳了。你们中一些人支持为儿童提供保险、让孩子可以留在父母保险下到25或26岁的努力。我支持了这一点，这是我们方案的一部分。
I supported a number of other ideas, from incentivizing wellness to creating an affordable catastrophic insurance option for young people that came from Republicans like Mike Enzi and Olympia Snowe in the Senate, and I'm sure from some of you as well. So when you say I ought to be willing to accept Republican ideas on health care, let's be clear: I have. 我还支持了许多其他想法，从激励健康管理到为年轻人创建可负担的灾难性保险选项——这些想法来自参议院的迈克·恩齐和奥林匹亚·斯诺等共和党人，我确信也来自你们中的一些人。所以当你们说我应当愿意接受共和党在医疗保健方面的想法时，我们要说清楚：我已经接受了。
Bipartisanship -- not for its own sake but to solve problems -- that's what our constituents, the American people, need from us right now. All of us then have a choice to make. We have to choose whether we're going to be politicians first or partners for progress; whether we're going to put success at the polls ahead of the lasting success we can achieve together for America. Just think about it for a while. We don't have to put it up for a vote today. 两党合作——不是为了合作本身，而是为了解决问题——这才是我们的选民、美国人民此刻需要我们做的事。所以我们所有人都有一个选择要做。我们必须选择是优先当政客，还是当进步的伙伴；是把选举成功置于我们可以共同为美国取得的持久成就之上。想一想吧。我们今天不必把它付诸表决。
Let me close by saying this. I was not elected by Democrats or Republicans, but by the American people. That's especially true because the fastest growing group of Americans are independents. That should tell us both something. I'm ready and eager to work with anyone who is willing to proceed in a spirit of goodwill. 最后我要说这番话。我不是被民主党人或共和党人选出来的，而是被美国人民选出来的。这一点尤其重要，因为美国增长最快的群体是独立选民。这应该让我们双方都有所触动。我准备好并且热切希望与任何愿意本着善意前行的人合作。
But understand, if we can't break free from partisan gridlock, if we can't move past a politics of "no," if resistance supplants constructive debate, I still have to meet my responsibilities as President. I've got to act for the greater good — because that, too, is a commitment that I have made. And that's -- that, too, is what the American people sent me to Washington to do. 但要明白，如果我们无法摆脱党派僵局，如果我们无法超越"说不"的政治，如果抵制取代了建设性辩论，我仍要履行我作为总统的职责。我必须为更大的利益而行动——因为这也是我作出的承诺。而那——那同样也是美国人民送我去华盛顿要做的。
So I am optimistic. I know many of you individually. And the irony, I think, of our political climate right now is that, compared to other countries, the differences between the two major parties on most issues is not as big as it's represented. But we've gotten caught up in the political game in a way that's just not healthy. It's dividing our country in ways that are preventing us from meeting the challenges of the 21st century. I'm hopeful that the conversation we have today can help reverse that. 所以我是乐观的。我个人认识你们中的许多人。我认为，我们当前政治气候的讽刺之处在于，与其他国家相比，两大政党在大多数问题上的分歧并不像所呈现的那么大。但我们已经以一种不健康的方式卷入了政治游戏。它正以阻碍我们迎接21世纪挑战的方式分裂我们的国家。我希望我们今天的对话能帮助扭转这一局面。
So thank you very much. Thank you, John. Now I'd like to open it up for questions. 那么非常感谢大家。谢谢你，约翰。现在我想开放提问。
Congressman Pence: The President has agreed to take questions and members would be encouraged to raise your hand while you remain in your seat. The chair will take the prerogative to make the first remarks. Mr. President, welcome back to the House Republican Conference. 彭斯众议员：总统已同意回答问题，请议员们在座位上举手。主席将先行发言。总统先生，欢迎回到众议院共和党大会。
President Obama: Thank you. 奥巴马总统：谢谢你。
Congressman Pence: [Off microphone.] We are pleased to have you return. [Inaudible] a year ago -- House Republicans said then we would make you two promises. Number one, that most of the people in this room and their families would pray for you and your beautiful family just about every day for the next four years. And I want to assure you we're keeping that promise. 彭斯众议员：【话筒未开。】我们很高兴你回来。【听不清】一年前——众议院共和党人当时承诺向你保证两件事。第一，这个房间里大多数人及其家人，在未来四年里几乎每天都会为你和你美丽的家人祈祷。我想向你保证，我们正在履行这个承诺。
President Obama: I appreciate that. 奥巴马总统：我对此心存感激。
Congressman Pence: [off microphone] Number two, our pledge to you, Mr. President, was that door is always open. And we hope the [inaudible] of our invitation that we [inaudible]. 彭斯众议员：【话筒未开】第二，总统先生，我们向你承诺，那扇门始终是敞开的。我们希望我们邀请的【听不清】我们【听不清】。
Mr. President, several of us in this conference yesterday on the way into Baltimore stopped by the Salvation Army homeless facility here in Baltimore. I met a little boy, an African American boy, in the 8th grade, named David Carter, Jr. When he heard that I would be seeing you today his eyes lit up like I had never seen. And I told him that if he wrote you a letter I'd give it to you, and I have. 总统先生，我们这个大会的几位成员昨天在前往巴尔的摩途中，顺道去了巴尔的摩的救世军流浪者收容所。我遇到一个小男孩，一个非裔美国男孩，八年级，名叫小大卫·卡特。当他听说我今天会见到你时，他的眼睛亮了起来，那种光芒我从未见过。我告诉他，如果他给你写封信，我会转交，我已经收到了。
But I had a conversation with little David, Jr. and David, Sr. His family has been struggling with the economy. [On microphone.] His dad said words to me, Mr. President, that I'll never forget. About my age and he said -- he said, Congressman, it's not like it was when we were coming up. He said, there's just no jobs. 但我与小大卫和小大卫的父亲进行了交谈。他的家庭在经济上很艰难。【话筒开启。】他的父亲对我说了一些话，总统先生，我永远不会忘记。他和我年纪相仿，他说——他说，众议员，现在不像我们成长的那时候了。他说，就是没有工作。
Now, last year about the time you met with us, unemployment was 7.5 percent in this country. Your administration, and your party in Congress, told us that we'd have to borrow more than $700 billion to pay for a so-called stimulus bill. It was a piecemeal list of projects and boutique tax cuts, all of which was -- we were told -- had to be passed or unemployment would go to 8 percent, as your administration said. Well, unemployment is 10 percent now, as you well know, Mr. President; here in Baltimore it's considerably higher. 去年大约在你与我们见面的时候，这个国家的失业率是7.5%。你的政府和国会中的民主党告诉我们，我们必须借入超过7000亿美元来支付所谓的刺激法案。那是一份零碎的项目清单和"精品店式"的减税，所有这些——我们被告知——必须通过，否则失业率会上升到8%，正如你的政府所说。嗯，现在失业率是10%，总统先生，你很清楚；在巴尔的摩，这个数字要高得多。
Now, Republicans offered a stimulus bill at the same time. It cost half as much as the Democratic proposal in Congress, and using your economic analyst models, it would have created twice the jobs at half the cost. It essentially was across-the-board tax relief, Mr. President. 与此同时，共和党人也提出了一个刺激法案。它的成本是国会民主党提案的一半，而用你们的经济分析模型，它会以一半的成本创造两倍的就业。它本质上是一揽子全面的减税，总统先生。
Now we know you've come to Baltimore today and you've raised this tax credit, which was last promoted by President Jimmy Carter. But the first question I would pose to you, very respectfully, Mr. President, is would you be willing to consider embracing -- in the name of little David Carter, Jr. and his dad, in the name of every struggling family in this country -- the kind of across-the-board tax relief that Republicans have advocated, that President Kennedy advocated, that President Reagan advocated and that has always been the means of stimulating broad-based economic growth? 现在我们知道你今天来到巴尔的摩，又提出了这项税收抵免，而这最后是由吉米·卡特总统推动的。但我要向你提出的第一个问题，非常恭敬地，总统先生，是：你是否愿意考虑接受——以小大卫·卡特及其父亲的名义，以这个国家每一个挣扎中的家庭的名义——接受共和党人、肯尼迪总统、里根总统所倡导的那种全面减税，那一直是刺激广泛经济增长的手段？
President Obama: Well, there was a lot packed into that question. First of all, let me say I already promised that I'll be writing back to that young man and his family, and I appreciate you passing on the letter. 奥巴马总统：嗯，这个问题里包含了很多内容。首先，我想说我已经承诺会给那个年轻人及其家人回信，感谢你转交这封信。
Member: Thank you. 议员：谢谢。
President Obama: But let's talk about just the jobs environment generally. You're absolutely right that when I was sworn in the hope was that unemployment would remain around 8 [percent], or in the 8 percent range. That was just based on the estimates made by both conservative and liberal economists, because at that point not all the data had trickled in. 奥巴马总统：我们来谈谈总的就业环境。你说得完全正确，我就任时人们希望失业率保持在8%左右，或8%的范围内。那只是基于保守派和自由派经济学家所作的估计，因为当时并非所有数据都已汇总。
We had lost 650,000 jobs in December. I'm assuming you're not faulting my policies for that. We had lost, it turns out, 700,000 jobs in January, the month I was sworn in. I'm assuming it wasn't my administration's policies that accounted for that. We lost another 650,000 jobs the subsequent month, before any of my policies had gone into effect. So I'm assuming that wasn't as a consequence of our policies; that doesn't reflect the failure of the Recovery Act. 12月我们失去了65万个工作岗位。我假设你们不会把这归咎于我的政策。事实证明，1月——我宣誓就职的那个月——我们失去了70万个工作岗位。我假设那不是本届政府的政策所致。下个月，在我的任何政策生效之前，我们又失去了65万个工作岗位。所以我假设那不是我们政策的结果；那并不反映《复苏法案》的失败。
The point being that what ended up happening was that the job losses from this recession proved to be much more severe -- in the first quarter of last year going into the second quarter of last year -- than anybody anticipated. So I mean, I think we can score political points on the basis of the fact that we underestimated how severe the job losses were going to be. But those job losses took place before any stimulus, whether it was the ones that you guys have proposed or the ones that we proposed, could have ever taken into effect. 要点是，最终发生的情况是，这次衰退造成的就业损失比任何人预料的都要严重得多——在去年第一季度延续到第二季度。所以，我是说，我们可以基于我们低估了就业损失的严重程度来得分政治分数。但那些就业损失发生在任何刺激方案——无论是你们提出的还是我们提出的——能够生效之前。
Now, that's just the fact, Mike, and I don't think anybody would dispute that. You could not find an economist who would dispute that. Now, at the same time, as I mentioned, most economists -- Republican and Democrat, liberal and conservative -- would say that had it not been for the stimulus package that we passed, things would be much worse. 迈克，这就是事实，我想没人会反驳。你找不到一个经济学家会反驳这一点。与此同时，正如我提到的，大多数经济学家——共和党和民主党、自由派和保守派——都会说，要不是我们通过的刺激方案，情况会糟得多。
Now, they didn't fill a 7 million hole in the number of people who were unemployed. They probably account for about 2 million, which means we still have 5 million folks in there that we've still got to deal with. That's a lot of people. The package that we put together at the beginning of the year, the truth is, should have reflected -- and I believe reflected what most of you would say are common sense things. This notion that this was a radical package is just not true. 当然，它们没有填补700万失业人口的窟窿。它们大概对应约200万人，这意味着我们仍有500万人需要应对。那是很多人。我们在年初推出的方案，坦率说，应当反映——我相信也确实反映了你们大多数人会说的常识性事务。所谓这是一套激进方案的说法，根本不是事实。
A third of them were tax cuts, and they weren't -- when you say they were "boutique" tax cuts, Mike, 95 percent of working Americans got tax cuts, small businesses got tax cuts, large businesses got help in terms of their depreciation schedules. I mean, it was a pretty conventional list of tax cuts. A third of it was stabilizing state budgets. 其中三分之一是减税，它们并不是——当你说它们是"精品店式"减税时，迈克，95%的劳动美国人得到了减税，小企业得到了减税，大企业在折旧计划方面得到了帮助。我的意思是，这是一份相当常规的减税清单。三分之一用于稳定州预算。
There is not a single person in here who, had it not been for what was in the stimulus package, wouldn't be going home to more teachers laid off, more firefighters laid off, more cops laid off. A big chunk of it was unemployment insurance and COBRA, just making sure that people had some floor beneath them, and, by the way, making sure that there was enough money in their pockets that businesses had some customers. 如果不是刺激方案中的内容，这里没有一个人回家时会面对更多教师被裁、更多消防员被裁、更多警察被裁。其中很大一部分是失业保险和COBRA，确保人们有基本保障，而且顺便说一句，确保他们口袋里有钱，让企业有顾客。
You take those two things out, that accounts for the majority of the stimulus package. Are there people in this room who think that was a bad idea? A portion of it was dealing with the AMT, the alternative minimum tax -- not a proposal of mine; that's not a consequence of my policies that we have a tax system where we keep on putting off a potential tax hike that is embedded in the budget that we have to fix each year. That cost about $70 billion. 把这两项拿掉，那占了刺激方案的大部分。这个房间里有人认为那是坏主意吗？其中一部分是处理AMT，即替代最低税——这不是我的提案；我们之所以有这样的税制——每年都要推迟一项嵌入预算、必须每年修补的潜在加税——这不是我的政策造成的。这耗资约700亿美元。
And then the last portion of it was infrastructure which, as I said, a lot of you have gone to appear at ribbon-cuttings for the same projects that you voted against. Now, I say all this not to re-litigate the past, but it's simply to state that the component parts of the Recovery Act are consistent with what many of you say are important things to do -- rebuilding our infrastructure, tax cuts for families and businesses, and making sure that we were providing states and individuals some support when the roof was caving in. 最后一部分是基础设施，正如我所说，你们中很多人出席过自己投票反对的同类项目的剪彩仪式。我说这些不是为了重新清算过去，而只是想说明，《复苏法案》的组成部分与你们很多人所说的重要事项是一致的——重建基础设施、为家庭和企业减税，以及在屋顶塌陷时为各州和个人提供一些支持。
And the notion that I would somehow resist doing something that cost half as much but would produce twice as many jobs -- why would I resist that? I wouldn't. I mean, that's my point, is that -- I am not an ideologue. I'm not. It doesn't make sense if somebody could tell me you could do this cheaper and get increased results that I wouldn't say, great. The problem is, I couldn't find credible economists who would back up the claims that you just made. 那种认为我会抵触一项成本只有一半却能产生两倍就业的方案的想法——我为什么要抵触？我不会。我的意思是，这就是我要说的——我不是教条主义者。我不是。如果有人能告诉我你可以花更少的钱获得更好的结果，我会说，太好了。问题是，我找不到可信的经济学家来支持你刚才的说法。
Now, we can -- here's what I know going forward, though. I mean, we're talking -- we were talking about the past. We can talk about this going forward. I have looked at every idea out there in terms of accelerating job growth to match the economic growth that's already taken place. The jobs credit that I'm discussing right now is one that a lot of people think would be the most cost-effective way for encouraging people to pick up their hiring. 那么，我们可以——下面是我所知道的、展望未来的事。我的意思是，我们正在谈——我们之前在谈过去。我们可以谈谈未来。我已经审视了那里所有关于加速就业增长以匹配已经发生的经济增长的想法。我正在讨论的就业抵免，是很多人认为最具有成本效益的鼓励企业招聘的方式。
There may be other ideas that you guys have; I am happy to look at them and I'm happy to embrace them. I suspect I will embrace some of them. Some of them I've already embraced. But the question I think we're going to have to ask ourselves is, as we move forward, are we going to be examining each of these issues based on what's good for the country, what the evidence tells us, or are we going to be trying to position ourselves so that come November we're able to say, "The other party, it's their fault." 你们可能还有其他想法；我很乐意看看，也很乐意采纳。我怀疑我会采纳其中一些。其中一些我已经采纳了。但我们不得不问自己的问题是，展望未来，我们是要基于什么对国家有利、证据告诉我们什么来审视这些议题，还是要在11月前设法摆出姿态说，"另一个党派，是他们的错"。
If we take the latter approach then we're probably not going to get much agreement. If we take the former, I suspect there's going to be a lot of overlap. All right? 如果我们采取后一种方式，那我们恐怕很难达成多少共识。如果我们采取前一种方式，我 suspect 会有很多重叠。好吗？
Congressman Pence: Mr. President, will you consider supporting across-the-board tax relief, as President Kennedy did? 彭斯众议员：总统先生，你是否会考虑像肯尼迪总统那样支持全面减税？
President Obama: Here's what I'm going to do, Mike. What I'm going to do is I'm going to take a look at what you guys are proposing. And the reason I say this, before you say, "Okay," I think is important to know -- what you may consider across-the-board tax cuts could be, for example, greater tax cuts for people who are making a billion dollars. I may not agree to a tax cut for Warren Buffet. You may be calling for an across-the-board tax cut for the banking industry right now. I may not agree to that. 奥巴马总统：迈克，我打算这么做。我打算看看你们提出的具体方案。我之所以这么说，在你答应之前，重要的是知道——你们所谓的全面减税，可能是例如对收入十亿美元的人更大的减税。我可能不同意给沃伦·巴菲特减税。你们现在可能呼吁对银行业实行全面减税。我可能不同意。
So I think that we've got to look at what specific proposals you're putting forward, and -- this is the last point I'll make -- if you're calling for just across-the-board tax cuts, and then on the other hand saying that we're somehow going to balance our budget, I'm going to want to take a look at your math and see how that works, because the issue of deficit and debt is another area where there has been a tendency for some inconsistent statements. How's that? All right? 所以我认为我们必须看看你们提出的具体提案，而且——这是我要说的最后一点——如果你只是呼吁全面减税，另一方面又说我们要以某种方式平衡预算，我会想看看你的算术、看看那如何运作，因为赤字和债务问题是另一个一直存在某种不一致说法的领域。如何？好吗？
Congressman Ryan: Thank you. Mr. President, first off, thanks for agreeing to accept our invitation here. It is a real pleasure and honor to have you with us here today. 瑞安众议员：谢谢你。总统先生，首先感谢你接受我们的邀请来到这里。今天能与你共聚一堂真是莫大的荣幸。
President Obama: Good to see you. Is this your crew right here, by the way? 奥巴马总统：很高兴见到你。顺便问一下，这是你的家人吗？
Congressman Ryan: It is. This is my daughter Liza, my son Charlie and Sam, and this is my wife Janna. 瑞安众议员：是的。这是我女儿丽莎、儿子查尔斯和萨姆，这是我妻子珍妮。
President Obama: Hey, guys. 奥巴马总统：嗨，孩子们。
Congressman Ryan: Say hi, everybody. I serve as a ranking member of the budget committee, so I'm going to talk a little budget if you don't mind. The spending bills that you've signed into law, the domestic discretionary spending has been increased by 84 percent. You now want to freeze spending at this elevated beginning next year. This means that total spending in your budget would grow at 3/100ths of 1 percent less than otherwise. I would simply submit that we could do more and start now. 瑞安众议员：大家打个招呼。我是预算委员会的资深成员，所以如果你不介意的话，我想谈谈预算。你签署成为法律的支出法案，使国内可自由支配支出增加了84%。你现在想从明年开始在这个高位冻结支出。这意味着你的预算中总支出将比原本少增长3/100个1百分点。我只是想说，我们可以做得更多，从现在开始。
You've also said that you want to take a scalpel to the budget and go through it line by line. We want to give you that scalpel. I have a proposal with my home state senator, Russ Feingold, bipartisan proposal, to create a constitutional version of the line-item veto. Problem is, we can't even get a vote on the proposal. 你也说过你想用手术刀审视预算，逐行审查。我们想把那把手术刀交给你。我有一个与我本州参议员拉斯·范戈尔德共同提出的两党提案，旨在创建一个宪法版本的逐项否决权。问题是，我们甚至无法让这个提案付诸表决。
So my question is, why not start freezing spending now, and would you support a line-item veto in helping us get a vote on it in the House? 所以我的问题是，为什么不从现在开始冻结支出，你是否会支持逐项否决权，并帮助我们在众议院推动它付诸表决？
President Obama: Let me respond to the two specific questions, but I want to just push back a little bit on the underlying premise about us increasing spending by 84 percent. Now, look, I talked to Peter Orszag right before I came here, because I suspected I'd be hearing this -- I'd be hearing this argument. 奥巴马总统：让我回答这两个具体问题，但我想对所谓我们增加支出84%这一基本前提稍微反驳一下。是这样，我来之前和彼得·欧尔萨格谈过，因为我猜会听到这个——会听到这种论点。
The fact of the matter is, is that most of the increases in this year's budget, this past year's budget, were not as a consequence of policies that we initiated but instead were built in as a consequence of the automatic stabilizers that kick in because of this enormous recession. So the increase in the budget for this past year was actually predicted before I was even sworn into office and had initiated any policies. 事实是，本年度预算——也就是上一财年预算——的增长，多数并不是我们所 initiated 的政策造成的，而是因这次巨大衰退而触发的自动稳定器所带来的。所以上一财年预算的增长实际上在我宣誓就职并启动任何政策之前就已经被预测到了。
Whoever was in there, Paul -- and I don't think you'll dispute that -- whoever was in there would have seen those same increases because of, on the one hand, huge drops in revenue, but at the same time people were hurting and needed help. And a lot of these things happened automatically. Now, the reason that I'm not proposing the discretionary freeze take into effect this year -- we prepared a budget for 2010, it's now going forward -- is, again, I am just listening to the consensus among people who know the economy best. 无论谁在那个位置上，保罗——我想你不会反驳——都会看到同样的增长，因为一方面收入大幅下降，另一方面人民在受苦、需要帮助。而其中很多事情是自动发生的。我之所以不主张今年就实施可自由支配支出冻结——我们已准备好2010年预算，目前正在推进——同样是因为我只是在听从最了解经济的人们的共识。
And what they will say is that if you either increase taxes or significantly lowered spending when the economy remains somewhat fragile, that that would have a destimulative effect and potentially you'd see a lot of folks losing business, more folks potentially losing jobs. That would be a mistake when the economy has not fully taken off. That's why I've proposed to do it for the next fiscal year. So that's point number two. 他们会说，如果在经济仍然有些脆弱时增税或大幅削减支出，那会产生反刺激效应，可能会看到很多人失去生意，更多人可能失去工作。在经济尚未完全起飞时这样做将是错误的。这就是为什么我提议在下一财年实施。这是第二点。
With respect to the line-item veto, I actually -- I think there's not a President out there that wouldn't love to have it. And I think that this is an area where we can have a serious conversation. I know it is a bipartisan proposal by you and Russ Feingold. I don't like being held up with big bills that have stuff in them that are wasteful but I've got to sign because it's a defense authorization bill and I've got to make sure that our troops are getting the funding that they need. 关于逐项否决权，实际上——我想没有哪位总统不希望拥有它。我认为这是一个我们可以进行认真对话的领域。我知道这是你和拉斯·范戈尔德提出的两党提案。我不喜欢被那些浪费性内容捆绑的大法案所牵制，但我又必须签署，因为它是国防授权法案，我必须确保我们的部队得到所需资金。
I will tell you, I would love for Congress itself to show discipline on both sides of the aisle. I think one thing that you have to acknowledge, Paul, because you study this stuff and take it pretty seriously, that the earmarks problem is not unique to one party and you end up getting a lot of pushback when you start going after specific projects of any one of you in your districts, because wasteful spending is usually spent somehow outside of your district. Have you noticed that? The spending in your district tends to seem pretty sensible. 我要告诉你，我真希望国会本身能在两党两侧展现自律。我认为你必须承认一点，保罗，因为你研究这些东西并且相当认真——专项拨款问题并非一党独有，当你开始追究你们任何一人在自己选区的具体项目时，你会遇到很多阻力，因为"浪费性支出"通常都是发生在你的选区之外的。你注意到了吗？发生在你选区的支出看起来总是相当合理。
So I would love to see more restraint within Congress. I'd like to work on the earmarks reforms that I mentioned in terms of putting earmarks online, because I think sunshine is the best disinfectant. But I am willing to have a serious conversation on the line-item veto issue. 所以我希望看到国会内部有更多约束。我希望就我提到的专项拨款改革开展工作，把专项拨款上网公开，因为我认为阳光是最好的消毒剂。但我也愿意就逐项否决权问题进行认真对话。
Congressman Ryan: I'd like to walk you through that, because we have a version we think is constitutional. 瑞安众议员：我想向你详细说明一下，因为我们有一个我们认为符合宪法的版本。
President Obama: Let me take a look at it. 奥巴马总统：让我看看。
Congressman Ryan: I would simply say that automatic stabilizer spending is mandatory spending. The discretionary spending, the bills that Congress signs that you sign into law, that has increased 84 percent. 瑞安众议员：我只想说，自动稳定器支出属于强制性支出。而可自由支配支出，即国会通过、你签署成为法律的那些法案，已经增长了84%。
President Obama: We'll have a longer debate on the budget numbers, all right? 奥巴马总统：我们以后就预算数字再展开辩论，好吗？
Congressman Pence: Shelley Moore Capito, West Virginia. 彭斯众议员：谢利·摩尔·卡皮托，西弗吉尼亚州。
Congresswoman Capito: Thank you, Mr. President, for joining us here today. As you said in the State of the Union address on Wednesday, jobs and the economy are number one. And I think everyone in this room, certainly I, agree with you on that. 卡皮托众议员：总统先生，谢谢你今天与我们共聚。正如你周三在国情咨文所说，就业和经济是第一要务。我想在座各位，包括我自己，都赞同你这一点。
I represent the state of West Virginia. We're resource-rich. We have a lot of coal and a lot of natural gas. But our -- my miners and the folks who are working and those who are unemployed are very concerned about some of your policies in these areas: cap and trade, an aggressive EPA, and the looming prospect of higher taxes. In our minds, these are job-killing policies. So I'm asking you if you would be willing to re-look at some of these policies, with a high unemployment and the unsure economy that we have now, to assure West Virginians that you're listening. 我代表西弗吉尼亚州。我们资源丰富，有大量煤炭和天然气。但我的矿工们、那些正在工作的人以及失业者，都非常担心你在这些领域的一些政策：总量管制与交易、激进的环保署，以及更高税收的逼近前景。在我们看来，这些是扼杀就业的政策。所以我请问你，在当前高失业率和不确定的经济环境下，你是否愿意重新审视其中一些政策，向西弗吉尼亚人保证你在倾听。
President Obama: Look, I listen all the time, including to your governor, who's somebody who I enjoyed working with a lot before the campaign and now that I'm President. And I know that West Virginia struggles with unemployment, and I know how important coal is to West Virginia and a lot of the natural resources there. That's part of the reason why I've said that we need a comprehensive energy policy that sets us up for a long-term future. 奥巴马总统：听着，我一直在倾听，包括你的州长，他在竞选前以及现在我担任总统期间都是我非常乐于合作的人。我知道西弗吉尼亚在失业问题上挣扎，我知道煤炭对西弗吉尼亚和那里许多自然资源有多重要。这就是为什么我说我们需要一个为国家长远未来布局的全面能源政策。
For example, nobody has been a bigger promoter of clean coal technology than I am. Testament to that, I ended up being in a whole bunch of advertisements that you guys saw all the time about investing in ways for us to burn coal more cleanly. I've said that I'm a promoter of nuclear energy, something that I think over the last three decades has been subject to a lot of partisan wrangling and ideological wrangling. I don't think it makes sense. I think that that has to be part of our energy mix. 例如，没有人比我更大力推广清洁煤技术。例证就是，我出现在你们一直看到的一大批广告中，宣传投资让我们更清洁地燃烧煤炭的方式。我说过我是核能的推动者，我认为过去三十年来核能一直饱受党派和意识形态争论之扰。我不认为这有意义。我认为它必须成为我们能源组合的一部分。
I've said that I am supportive -- and I said this two nights ago at the State of the Union -- that I am in favor of increased production. So if you look at the ideas that this caucus has, again with respect to energy, I'm for a lot of what you said you are for. The one thing that I've also said, though, and here we have a serious disagreement and my hope is we can work through these disagreements -- there's going to be an effort on the Senate side to do so on a bipartisan basis -- is that we have to plan for the future. 我说过我支持——两天前我在国情咨文里也说过——我赞成增加生产。所以如果看看这个党团在能源方面的想法，我支持你们所支持的许多内容。我还要说的另一件事是——这一点上我们有严重分歧，我希望我们能化解分歧——参议院方面将有一项两党合作的努力——我们必须为未来做规划。
And the future is that clean energy -- cleaner forms of energy are going to be increasingly important, because even if folks are still skeptical in some cases about climate change in our politics and in Congress, the world is not skeptical about it. 未来是，清洁能源——更清洁的能源形式将变得越来越重要，因为即使一些人在我们的政治和国会中仍然在某些情况下对气候变化持怀疑态度，世界并不怀疑。
If we're going to be after some of these big markets, they're going to be looking to see, is the United States the one that's developing clean coal technology? Is the United States developing our natural gas resources in the most effective way? Is the United States the one that is going to lead in electric cars? Because if we're not leading, those other countries are going to be leading. 如果我们要争取一些大市场，他们会关注：美国是否在开发清洁煤技术？美国是否在以最有效的方式开发天然气资源？美国是否将在电动汽车领域领先？因为如果我们不领先，其他国家就会领先。
So what I want to do is work with West Virginia to figure out how we can seize that future. But to do that, that means there's going to have to be some transition. We can't operate the coal industry in the United States as if we're still in the 1920s or the 1930s or the 1950s. We've got to be thinking what does that industry look like in the next hundred years. And it's going to be different. And that means there's going to be some transition. 所以我想做的是与西弗吉尼亚合作，找出我们如何能把握那个未来。但要做到这一点，就意味着会有一些过渡。我们不能像还停留在20年代、30年代或50年代那样经营美国的煤炭产业。我们必须思考那个产业在下一个百年会是什么样子。它会是不同的。这意味着会有一些过渡。
And that's where I think a well-thought-through policy of incentivizing the new while recognizing that there's going to be a transition process -- and we're not just suddenly putting the old out of business right away -- that has to be something that both Republicans and Democrats should be able to embrace. 而这就是我认为一项深思熟虑的政策——激励新事物，同时认识到会有一个过渡过程，我们不会一夜之间就让旧行业退出——应当是共和党人和民主党人都能接受的事情。
Congressman Pence: Jason Chaffetz, Utah. 彭斯众议员：杰森·查弗茨，犹他州。
Congressman Chafetz: Thank you, Mr. President. It's truly an honor. 查弗茨众议员：谢谢你，总统先生。真是莫大的荣幸。
President Obama: Great to be here. 奥巴马总统：很高兴来到这里。
Congressman Chafetz: And I appreciate you being here. I'm one of 22 House freshmen. We didn't create this mess, but we are here to help clean it up. You talked a lot about this deficit of trust. There's some things that have happened that I would appreciate your perspective on, because I can look you in the eye and tell you we have not been obstructionists. 查弗茨众议员：我很感谢你来到这里。我是22位众议院新议员之一。这个烂摊子不是我们造成的，但我们来这里是帮忙收拾的。你谈到了很多关于信任赤字的事。有一些发生的事情，我希望能听听你的看法，因为我可以直视你的眼睛告诉你，我们并不是一味阻挠。
Democrats have the House and Senate and the presidency. And when you stood up before the American people multiple times and said you would broadcast the health care debates on C-SPAN, you didn't. And I was disappointed, and I think a lot of Americans were disappointed. You said you weren't going to allow lobbyists in the senior-most positions within your administration, and yet you did. I applauded you when you said it -- and disappointed when you didn't. 民主党掌控着众议院、参议院和总统职位。当你在美国人民面前多次表示要在C-SPAN转播医疗保健辩论时，你没有做到。我对此感到失望，我想很多美国人也是。你说过不允许游说者进入你的政府最高层职位，但你却这么做了。你这么说时我鼓掌了——你没做到时我很失望。
You said you'd go line by line through the health care debate -- or through the health care bill. And there were six of us, including Dr. Phil Roe, who sent you a letter and said, "We would like to take you up on the offer; we'd like to come." We never heard a letter, we never got a call. We were never involved in any of those discussions. 你说你会逐行审议医疗保健辩论——或者医疗保健法案。我们六个人，包括菲尔·罗博士，给你写信说，"我们想接受你的提议；我们想参与。"我们从未收到回信，从未接到电话，我们从未参与过任何这些讨论。
And when you said in the House of Representatives that you were going to tackle earmarks -- in fact, you didn't want to have any earmarks in any of your bills -- I jumped up out of my seat and applauded you. But it didn't happen. More importantly, I want to talk about moving forward, but if we could address -- 当你在众议院说你要解决专项拨款问题——事实上你不希望任何法案中有专项拨款——我从座位上跳起来为你鼓掌。但那没有发生。更重要的是，我想谈的是向前看，但如果我们能先回应——
President Obama: Well, how about -- 奥巴马总统：嗯，要不要——
Congressman Chafetz: -- I would certainly appreciate it. 查弗茨众议员：——我会非常感激。
President Obama: That was a long list, so -- let me respond. Look, the truth of the matter is that if you look at the health care process -- just over the course of the year -- overwhelmingly the majority of it actually was on C-SPAN, because it was taking place in congressional hearings in which you guys were participating. I mean, how many committees were there that helped to shape this bill? Countless hearings took place. 奥巴马总统：这是一长串问题，那么——让我回应。听着，事实是，如果你看看医疗保健过程——就在过去这一年——绝大多数实际上是在C-SPAN上播出的，因为它发生在你们参与的国会听证会上。我的意思是，有多少委员会参与塑造了这项法案？进行了无数次听证会。
Now, I kicked it off, by the way, with a meeting with many of you, including your key leadership. What is true, there's no doubt about it, is that once it got through the committee process and there were now a series of meetings taking place all over the Capitol trying to figure out how to get the thing together -- that was a messy process. And I take responsibility for not having structured it in a way where it was all taking place in one place that could be filmed. 顺便说一句，我是和你们中许多人，包括你们的核心领导层，开会启动这件事的。毫无疑问的是，一旦法案过了委员会程序，要在国会山各处举行一系列会议、把东西拼凑起来——那是一个混乱的过程。我承担没有将其组织成可在一处进行拍摄的责任。
How to do that logistically would not have been as easy as it sounds, because you're shuttling back and forth between the House, the Senate, different offices, et cetera, different legislators. But I think it's a legitimate criticism. So on that one, I take responsibility. 要在后勤上做到这一点，并不像听起来那么容易，因为你要在众议院、参议院、不同办公室之间来回穿梭，等等，还有不同的立法者。但我认为这是合理的批评。所以那一点，我承担责任。
With respect to earmarks, we didn't have earmarks in the Recovery Act. We didn't get a lot of credit for it, but there were no earmarks in that. I was confronted at the beginning of my term with an omnibus package that did have a lot of earmarks from Republicans and Democrats, and a lot of people in this chamber. 关于专项拨款，《复苏法案》中没有专项拨款。我们没有因此得到很多赞誉，但里面确实没有专项拨款。我上任之初面临一个综合拨款法案，其中确实有大量来自共和党人和民主党人的专项拨款，以及本会议厅许多人的专项拨款。
And the question was whether I was going to have a big budget fight, at a time when I was still trying to figure out whether or not the financial system was melting down and we had to make a whole bunch of emergency decisions about the economy. So what I said was let's keep them to a minimum, but I couldn't excise them all. 问题在于我是否要展开一场大的预算战——而当时我仍在弄清金融体系是否在崩盘，我们还要对经济作出一系列紧急决定。所以我说的是把它们控制在最低限度，但我无法全部剔除。
Now, the challenge I guess I would have for you as a freshman, is what are you doing inside your caucus to make sure that I'm not the only guy who is responsible for this stuff, so that we're working together, because this is going to be a process? 那么，作为新议员，我对你的挑战是：你在党团内部做了什么，以确保我不是唯一要对这些事情负责的人，以便我们能携手合作，因为这将是一个过程？
When we talk about earmarks, I think all of us are willing to acknowledge that some of them are perfectly defensible, good projects; it's just they haven't gone through the regular appropriations process in the full light of day. So one place to start is to make sure that they are at least transparent, that everybody knows what's there before we move forward. 当我们谈论专项拨款时，我想我们都愿意承认其中一些是完全站得住脚的好项目；只是它们没有在阳光下经过常规拨款程序。所以一个起点是确保它们至少是透明的，每个人都知道里面有什么，然后我们再向前推进。
In terms of lobbyists, I can stand here unequivocally and say that there has not been an administration who was tougher on making sure that lobbyists weren't participating in the administration than any administration that's come before us. Now, what we did was, if there were lobbyists who were on boards and commissions that were carryovers and their term hadn't been completed, we didn't kick them off. We simply said that moving forward any time a new slot opens, they're being replaced. 至于游说者，我可以毫不含糊地站在这里说，在确保游说者不参与政府运作方面，没有哪届政府比我们之前的任何一届政府更严格。我们的做法是，如果游说者在董事会或委员会中属于留任期未满的成员，我们没有把他们赶走。我们只是说，今后任何时候只要有新空缺，他们就会被替换。
So we've actually been very consistent in making sure that we are eliminating the impact of lobbyists, day in, day out, on how this administration operates. There have been a handful of waivers where somebody is highly skilled -- for example, a doctor who ran Tobacco-Free Kids technically is a registered lobbyist; on the other end, has more experience than anybody in figuring out how kids don't get hooked on cigarettes. So there have been a couple of instances like that, but generally we've been very consistent on that front. 所以我们实际上一直非常一致地确保消除游说者对本届政府日常运作的影响。有少数豁免情况是某人技能很高——例如，一位曾管理"无烟儿童"组织的医生在技术上属于注册游说者；但另一方面，他在弄清如何让孩子不染上香烟方面的经验比任何人都多。所以有过几例这样的情况，但总体上我们在这一方面一直非常一致。
Congressman Pence: Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee. 彭斯众议员：玛莎·布莱克本，田纳西州。
Congresswoman Blackburn: Thank you, Mr. President, and thank you for acknowledging that we have ideas on health care because, indeed, we do have ideas, we have plans, we have over 50 bills, we have lots of amendments that would bring health care ideas to the forefront. 布莱克本众议员：谢谢你，总统先生，也谢谢你承认我们在医疗保健方面有想法，因为我们的确有想法，有计划，我们有50多个法案，我们有大量修正案可以将医疗保健想法推向前台。
We would -- we've got plans to lower cost, to change purchasing models, address medical liability, insurance accountability, chronic and preexisting conditions, and access to affordable care for those with those conditions, insurance portability, expanded access -- but not doing it with creating more government, more bureaucracy, and more cost for the American taxpayer. 我们有计划降低成本、改变购买模式、解决医疗责任、保险问责、慢性病和既往病症以及为有这些情况的人提供可负担医疗的问题、保险可携带性、扩大覆盖面——但不是通过创建更多政府、更多官僚机构和给美国纳税人带来更多成本的方式。
And we look forward to sharing those ideas with you. We want to work with you on health reform and making certain that we do it in an affordable, cost-effective way that is going to reduce bureaucracy, reduce government interference, and reduce costs to individuals and to taxpayers. And if those good ideas aren't making it to you, maybe it's the House Democrat leadership that is an impediment instead of a conduit. 我们期待与你们分享这些想法。我们希望与你合作进行医疗改革，确保我们以可负担、有成本效益的方式进行，减少官僚主义、减少政府干预、降低个人和纳税人的成本。如果这些好想法没有传达到你那里，也许是众议院民主党领导层成了障碍而不是渠道。
But we're concerned also that there are some lessons learned from public option health care plans that maybe are not being heeded. And certainly in my state of Tennessee, we were the test case for public option health care in 1994, and our Democrat government has even cautioned that maybe our experiences there would provide some lessons learned that should be heeded, and would provide guidance for us to go forward. And as you said, what we should be doing is tossing old ideas out, bad ideas out, and moving forward in refining good ideas. And certainly we would welcome that opportunity. 但我们也担心，从公共选择权医疗计划中得出的一些教训可能未被重视。当然在我的田纳西州，我们是1994年公共选择权医疗的试点，我们的民主党政府甚至告诫说，也许我们当时的经验可以提供一些应被重视的教训，并为我们前进提供指引。正如你所说，我们应该做的是把旧想法、坏想法扔掉，继续完善好想法。我们当然欢迎那个机会。
So my question to you is, when will we look forward to starting anew and sitting down with you to put all of these ideas on the table, to look at these lessons learned, to benefit from that experience, and to produce a product that is going to reduce government interference, reduce cost, and be fair to the American taxpayer? 所以我的问题是，我们什么时候可以期待重新开始，与你坐下来把所有这些想法摆到桌面上，看看这些经验教训，从中受益，并产出一个将减少政府干预、降低成本、对美国纳税人公平的方案？
President Obama: Actually, I've gotten many of your ideas. I've taken a look at them, even before I was handed this. Some of the ideas we have embraced in our package. Some of them are embraced with caveats. So let me give you an example. I think one of the proposals that has been focused on by the Republicans as a way to reduce costs is allowing insurance companies to sell across state lines. We actually include that as part of our approach. 奥巴马总统：其实，我已经得到了你们的许多想法。我看过它们，甚至在我被递交这本册子之前。有些想法我们已经在方案中采纳。有些则有保留地采纳。让我举个例子。我认为共和党人作为降低成本方式而聚焦的一项提案，是允许保险公司跨州销售。我们实际上把它作为我们方案的一部分。
But the caveat is, we've got to do so with some minimum standards, because otherwise what happens is that you could have insurance companies circumvent a whole bunch of state regulations about basic benefits or what have you, making sure that a woman is able to get mammograms as part of preventive care, for example. Part of what could happen is insurance companies could go into states and cherry-pick and just get those who are healthiest and leave behind those who are least healthy, which would raise everybody's premiums who weren't healthy, right? 但保留意见是，我们必须设定一些最低标准，否则会出现的情况是，保险公司可以规避一大堆关于基本福利的州法规，例如确保女性能够将乳腺X光检查作为预防性护理的一部分。可能发生的情况是，保险公司进入各州，挑肥拣瘦，只保最健康的人，把最不健康的人留下，那就会提高所有不健康者的保费，对吧？
So it's not that many of these ideas aren't workable, but we have to refine them to make sure that they don't just end up worsening the situation for folks rather than making it better. 所以并不是这些想法不可行，而是我们必须完善它们，确保它们不会最终让情况对人们更糟，而不是更好。
Now, what I said at the State of the Union is what I still believe: If you can show me -- and if I get confirmation from health care experts, people who know the system and how it works, including doctors and nurses -- ways of reducing people's premiums; covering those who do not have insurance; making it more affordable for small businesses; 现在，我在国情咨文中所说的，仍然是我所相信的：如果你能向我展示——并且我能从医疗专家、了解该体系及其运作的人，包括医生和护士那里得到确认——降低人们保费的方法；覆盖没有保险的人；让小企业更能负担得起；
having insurance reforms that ensure people have insurance even when they've got preexisting conditions, that their coverage is not dropped just because they're sick, that young people right out of college or as they're entering in the workforce can still get health insurance -- if those component parts are things that you care about and want to do, I'm game. 进行保险改革，确保人们即使有既往病症也能获得保险，他们的保险不会因为生病而被取消，刚毕业或刚进入职场的年轻人仍能获得医疗保险——如果这些组成部分是你们关心并想做的事，我愿意。
And I've got -- and I've got a lot of these ideas. 而且我——我有很多这样的想法。
The last thing I will say, though -- let me say this about health care and the health care debate, because I think it also bears on a whole lot of other issues. If you look at the package that we've presented -- and there's some stray cats and dogs that got in there that we were eliminating, we were in the process of eliminating. 最后我要说——让我谈谈医疗保健和医疗保健辩论，因为我认为它也关系到许多其他议题。如果你看看我们提出的方案——里面有一些我们是正在清除、正在清除过程中的"杂项"。
For example, we said from the start that it was going to be important for us to be consistent in saying to people if you can have your -- if you want to keep the health insurance you got, you can keep it, that you're not going to have anybody getting in between you and your doctor in your decision making. And I think that some of the provisions that got snuck in might have violated that pledge. 例如，我们从一开始就说过，我们要保持一致地告诉人们：如果你想保留你现有的医疗保险，你可以保留；不会有人插手你和医生之间的决策，这一点很重要。我认为一些偷偷塞进去的条款可能违反了这一承诺。
And so we were in the process of scrubbing this and making sure that it's tight. But at its core, if you look at the basic proposal that we've put forward: it has an exchange so that businesses and the self-employed can buy into a pool and can get bargaining power the same way big companies do; the insurance reforms that I've already discussed, making sure that there's choice and competition for those who don't have health insurance. The component parts of this thing are pretty similar to what Howard Baker, Bob Dole, and Tom Daschle proposed at the beginning of this debate last year. 所以我们当时正在清洗方案、确保它严密。但从核心来看，如果你看看我们提出的基本提案：它设立了一个交易所，让企业和个体经营者可以加入一个池，获得与大公司一样的议价能力；我已讨论过的保险改革，确保没有保险的人有选择和竞争。这个方案的基本组成部分与霍华德·贝克、鲍勃·多尔和汤姆·达施勒去年辩论开始时提出的非常相似。
Now, you may not agree with Bob Dole and Howard Baker, and, certainly you don't agree with Tom Daschle on much, but that's not a radical bunch. But if you were to listen to the debate and, frankly, how some of you went after this bill, you'd think that this thing was some Bolshevik plot. No, I mean, that's how you guys -- that's how you guys presented it. 你可能不同意鲍勃·多尔和霍华德·贝克，当然你在很多问题上不同意汤姆·达施勒，但他们不是激进派。但如果你听听辩论，坦率说，听听你们中一些人如何抨击这项法案，你会以为这是某种布尔什维克阴谋。不，我的意思是，这就是你们——这就是你们所描述的。
And so I'm thinking to myself, well, how is it that a plan that is pretty centrist -- no, look, I mean, I'm just saying, I know you guys disagree, but if you look at the facts of this bill, most independent observers would say this is actually what many Republicans -- is similar to what many Republicans proposed to Bill Clinton when he was doing his debate on health care. 所以我自己在想，一个相当中间派的方案——不，听着，我的意思是，我知道你们不同意，但如果你看看这项法案的事实，大多数独立观察者会说，这其实是许多共和党人——类似于许多共和党人在比尔·克林顿进行医疗保健辩论时提出的方案。
So all I'm saying is, we've got to close the gap a little bit between the rhetoric and the reality. I'm not suggesting that we're going to agree on everything, whether it's on health care or energy or what have you, but if the way these issues are being presented by the Republicans is that this is some wild-eyed plot to impose huge government in every aspect of our lives, what happens is you guys then don't have a lot of room to negotiate with me. 所以我要说的是，我们必须在言辞与现实之间缩小一点差距。我并不是说我们将在所有问题上达成一致，无论是医疗保健还是能源或其他什么，但如果共和党人把这些议题描述为某种狂热的、要在我们生活方方面面强加庞大政府的阴谋，那么你们就没有多少空间与我谈判了。
I mean, the fact of the matter is, is that many of you, if you voted with the administration on something, are politically vulnerable in your own base, in your own party. You've given yourselves very little room to work in a bipartisan fashion because what you've been telling your constituents is, this guy is doing all kinds of crazy stuff that's going to destroy America. 我的意思是，事实是，你们中许多人如果在某件事上与本届政府一起投票，在你们自己的基础盘、自己的党内就会政治上脆弱。你们几乎没有给自己留下以两党合作方式行事的空间，因为你们一直在告诉选民，这家伙在做各种疯狂的事情，将毁灭美国。
And I would just say that we have to think about tone. It's not just on your side, by the way -- it's on our side, as well. This is part of what's happened in our politics, where we demonize the other side so much that when it comes to actually getting things done, it becomes tough to do. Mike [Pence]. 我只想说我们必须考虑语气。这不仅仅是你们一方的问题，顺便说一下——我们一方也有。这就是我们政治中发生的事情的一部分，我们把对方妖魔化得如此严重，以至于到了真正要做事的时候，就变得很难做到。迈克【彭斯】。
Congressman Pence: Dr. Tom Price from Georgia, and then we'll have one more after that if your time permits, Mr. President. 彭斯众议员：汤姆·普莱斯博士来自佐治亚州，如果时间允许，之后还有一位。
President Obama: You know, I'm having fun. 奥巴马总统：要知道，我玩得很开心。
Congressman Pence: Okay. 彭斯众议员：好的。
President Obama: This is great. 奥巴马总统：这很棒。
Congressman Pence: So are we. 彭斯众议员：我们也是。
Congressman Price: Mr. President, thank you. I want to stick on the general topic of health care, but ask a very specific question. You have repeatedly said, most recently at the State of the Union, that Republicans have offered no ideas and no solutions. In spite of the fact -- 普莱斯众议员：总统先生，谢谢你。我想继续谈医疗保健这个总话题，但问一个非常具体的问题。你反复说，最近一次是在国情咨文中，共和党人没有提出任何想法和解决方案。尽管——
President Obama: I don't think I said that. What I said was, within the context of health care -- I remember that speech pretty well, it was only two days ago -- I said I welcome ideas that you might provide. I didn't say that you haven't provided ideas. I said I welcome those ideas that you'll provide. 奥巴马总统：我不认为我这么说过。我说的是，在医疗保健的语境下——我记得那次演讲，就在两天前——我说我欢迎你们可能提供的想法。我没有说你们没有提供想法。我说我欢迎你们将要提供的那些想法。
Congressman Price: Mr. President, multiple times, from your administration, there have come statements that Republicans have no ideas and no solutions. In spite of the fact that we've offered, as demonstrated today, positive solutions to all of the challenges we face, including energy and the economy and health care, specifically in the area of health care -- this bill, H.R.3400, that has more co-sponsors than any health care bill in the House, is a bill that would provide health coverage for all Americans; would correct the significant insurance challenges of affordability and preexisting; 普莱斯众议员：总统先生，多次从你的政府传出声明，说共和党人没有想法和解决方案。尽管我们已经提供，正如今天所展示的，对我们都面临的所有挑战的积极解决方案，包括能源、经济和医疗保健，特别是在医疗保健领域——这项法案，H.R.3400，是众议院联署人最多的医疗保健法案，它将为所有美国人提供医疗保险覆盖；将纠正保险在可负担性和既往病症方面的重大挑战；
would solve the lawsuit abuse issue, which isn't addressed significantly in the other proposals that went through the House and the Senate; would write into law that medical decisions are made between patients and families and doctors; and does all of that without raising taxes by a penny. 将解决诉讼滥用问题，而通过众议院和参议院的其他提案并未显著解决这个问题；将把医疗决策由患者、家属和医生之间作出这一原则写入法律；而且所有这些都不增税一分钱。
But my specific question is, what should we tell our constituents who know that Republicans have offered positive solutions to the challenges that Americans face and yet continue to hear out of the administration that we've offered nothing? 但我具体的问题是，我们该对我们的选民说什么？他们知道共和党人已经为美国人面临的挑战提供了积极解决方案，却不断听到政府说我们什么也没提供。
President Obama: Tom, look, I have to say that on the -- let's just take the health care debate. And it's probably not constructive for us to try to debate a particular bill -- this isn't the venue to do it. But if you say, "We can offer coverage for all Americans, and it won't cost a penny," that's just not true. You can't structure a bill where suddenly 30 million people have coverage, and it costs nothing. If -- 奥巴马总统：汤姆，听着，我不得不说——就拿医疗保健辩论来说。在这里辩论某项具体法案可能不太有建设性——这不是合适的场合。但如果你说，"我们可以为所有美国人提供覆盖，且不花一分钱，"那不是真的。你无法构建一个法案，让3000万人突然有保险，却什么都不花。如果——
Congressman Price: Mr. President, can I -- and I understand that we're not interested in debating this bill, but what should we tell our constituents who know that we've offered these solutions and yet hear from the administration that we have offered nothing. 普莱斯众议员：总统先生，我可以——我明白我们对辩论这项法案没兴趣，但我们该对我们的选民说什么？他们知道我们提供了这些解决方案，却听到政府说我们什么也没提供。
President Obama: Let me -- I'm using this as a specific example, so let me answer your question. You asked a question; I want to answer it. It's not enough if you say, for example, that we've offered a health care plan and I look up -- this is just under the section that you've just provided me, or the book that you just provided me -- summary of GOP health care reform bill: The GOP plan will lower health care premiums for American families and small businesses, addressing America's number-one priority for health reform. 奥巴马总统：让我——我把它作为具体例子，所以让我回答你的问题。你问了一个问题；我想回答。这还不够，如果你说，例如，我们提出了一个医疗保健方案，我抬头一看——就在你刚才给我的那一节，或者你刚才给我的那本书里——共和党医疗保健改革法案摘要：共和党方案将为美国家庭和小企业降低医疗保费，解决美国医疗改革的首要优先事项。
I mean, that's an idea that we all embrace. But specifically it's got to work. I mean, there's got to be a mechanism in these plans that I can go to an independent health care expert and say, is this something that will actually work, or is it boilerplate? 我的意思是，这是我们都认同的想法。但具体来说，它必须有效。我的意思是，这些方案中必须有一种机制，让我可以去找一位独立的医疗专家说，这到底是真正能奏效的东西，还是套话？
If I'm told, for example, that the solution to dealing with health care costs is tort reform, something that I've said I am willing to work with you on, but the CBO or other experts say to me, at best, this could reduce health care costs relative to where they're growing by a couple of percentage points, or save $5 billion a year, that's what we can score it at, and it will not bend the cost curve long term or reduce premiums significantly -- then you can't make the claim that that's the only thing that we have to do. 如果有人告诉我，例如，应对医疗成本的解决方案是侵权法改革——我说过我愿意就此与你合作——但国会预算办公室或其他专家告诉我，这最多能将医疗成本相对其增长降低几个百分点，或每年节省50亿美元，这就是我们能评定的数额，它不会长期扭转成本曲线或显著降低保费——那么你就不能声称那是我们唯一要做的事。
If we're going to do multi-state insurance so that people can go across state lines, I've got to be able to go to an independent health care expert, Republican or Democrat, who can tell me that this won't result in cherry-picking of the healthiest going to some and the least healthy being worse off. So I am absolutely committed to working with you on these issues, but it can't just be political assertions that aren't substantiated when it comes to the actual details of policy. 如果我们打算做跨州保险，让民众可以跨越州界，我必须能找到一位独立的医疗专家，无论是共和党人还是民主党人，可以告诉我这不会导致最健康者被挑走、最不健康者处境更糟。所以我绝对致力于就这些问题与你合作，但它们不能只是未经证实的政治断言，尤其是涉及政策具体细节时。
Because otherwise, we're going to be selling the American people a bill of goods. I mean, the easiest thing for me to do on the health care debate would have been to tell people that what you're going to get is guaranteed health insurance, lower your costs, all the insurance reforms; we're going to lower the costs of Medicare and Medicaid and it won't cost anybody anything. That's great politics, it's just not true. 因为否则，我们就是在向美国人民推销虚假商品。我的意思是，医疗保健辩论中最容易做的事就是告诉人们：你将获得有保障的医疗保险、更低的成本、所有保险改革；我们将降低Medicare和Medicaid的成本，且不会让任何人付出代价。那是很好的政治，但不是真的。
So there's got to be some test of realism in any of these proposals, mine included. I've got to hold myself accountable, and guaranteed the American people will hold themselves -- will hold me accountable if what I'm selling doesn't actually deliver. 所以这些提案中必须有一些现实主义的检验，包括我的提案。我必须对自己负责，而美国人民肯定会——如果我推销的东西不能真正兑现，他们会让我负责。
Congressman Price: Mr. President, a point of clarification, what's in the Better Solutions book are all the legislative proposals that were offered -- 普莱斯众议员：总统先生，澄清一下，《更好方案》一书中的都是2009年提出的所有立法提案——
President Obama: I understand that. I've actually read your bills. 奥巴马总统：我明白。我实际上读过你们的法案。
Congressman Price: -- throughout 2009. 普莱斯众议员：——整个2009年的。
President Obama: I understand. 奥巴马总统：我明白。
Congressman Price: And so, rest assured the summary document you received is backed up by precisely the kind of detailed legislation that Speaker Pelosi and your administration have been busy ignoring for 12 months. 普莱斯众议员：所以，请放心，你收到的摘要文件有 precisely 那种详细立法作为支撑，而佩洛西议长和你的政府一年来一直在忙于无视它。
President Obama: Well, Mike -- well, hold on, hold on a second. No, no, no, no. Hold on a second, guys. You know, Mike, I've read your legislation. I mean, I take a look at this stuff -- and the good ideas we take. But here's -- here's the thing -- here's the thing that I guess all of us have to be mindful of, it can't be all or nothing, one way or the other. 奥巴马总统：嗯，迈克——嗯，等等，等等。不，不，不，不。等等，伙计们。要知道，迈克，我读过你们的立法。我的意思是，我会看这些东西——好的想法我们会采纳。但问题是——问题是，我想我们所有人都必须注意的是，这不能是全有或全无、要么这样要么那样。
And what I mean by that is this: If we put together a stimulus package in which a third of it are tax cuts that normally you guys would support, and support for states and the unemployed, and helping people stay on COBRA that your governors certainly would support -- Democrat or a Republican; and then you've got some infrastructure, and maybe there's some things in there that you don't like in terms of infrastructure, or you think the bill should have been $500 billion instead of $700 billion or there's this provision or that provision that you don't like. 我的意思是：如果我们推出一个刺激方案，其中三分之一是你们通常支持的减税，加上对各州和失业者的支持，以及帮助人们留在COBRA上——你们的州长无论是民主党人还是共和党人肯定会支持；然后还有一些基础设施，也许其中有些内容你们不喜欢，或者你认为法案应该是5000亿美元而不是7000亿美元，或者有这个那个你不喜欢的规定。
If there's uniform opposition because the Republican caucus doesn't get 100 percent or 80 percent of what you want, then it's going to be hard to get a deal done. That's because that's not how democracy works. 如果因为共和党党团没有得到100%或80%想要的就一致反对，那么达成协议就会很困难。因为民主不是这样运作的。
So my hope would be that we can look at some of these component parts of what we're doing and maybe we break some of them up on different policy issues. So if the good congressman from Utah has a particular issue on lobbying reform that he wants to work with us on, we may not able to agree on a comprehensive package on everything but there may be some component parts that we can work on. 所以我的希望是，我们可以看看我们正在做的事情中的一些组成部分，也许可以就不同的政策议题把它们拆开。所以如果那位来自犹他州的优秀议员在游说改革上有特定问题想与我们合作，我们也许无法就一切问题达成综合方案，但可能有一些组成部分我们可以合作。
You may not support our overall jobs package, but if you look at the tax credit that we're proposing for small businesses right now, it is consistent with a lot of what you guys have said in the past. And just the fact that it's my administration that's proposing it shouldn't prevent you from supporting it. That's my point. 你们可能不支持我们的整体就业方案，但如果你看看我们现在为小企业提议的税收抵免，它和你们过去所说的很多内容是一致的。仅仅是本届政府提出这一事实，不应阻止你们支持它。这就是我的观点。
Congressman Pence: Thank you, Mr. President. Peter Roskam from the great state of Illinois. 彭斯众议员：谢谢你，总统先生。彼得·罗斯卡姆来自伟大的伊利诺伊州。
President Obama: Oh, Peter is an old friend of mine. 奥巴马总统：哦，彼得是我的老朋友。
Congressman Roskam: Hey, Mr. President. 罗斯卡姆众议员：嗨，总统先生。
President Obama: Peter and I have had many debates. 奥巴马总统：彼得和我进行过许多次辩论。
Congressman Roskam: Well, this won't be one. Mr. President, I heard echoes today of the state senator that I served with in Springfield and there was an attribute and a characteristic that you had that I think served you well there. You took on some very controversial subjects -- death penalty reform -- you and I -- 罗斯卡姆众议员：嗯，这次不会。总统先生，我今天听到了我曾在斯普林菲尔德共事的那位州参议员的回声，你身上有一种特质，我觉得在那里对你很有帮助。你曾承担一些非常有争议的议题——死刑改革——你和我——
President Obama: Sure. We worked on it together. 奥巴马总统：当然。我们一起做过。
Congressman Roskam: -- negotiated on. You took on ethics reform. You took on some big things. One of the keys was you rolled your sleeves up, you worked with the other party, and ultimately you were able to make the deal. Now, here's an observation. 罗斯卡姆众议员：——协商过。你推动过伦理改革。你承担过一些大事。关键之一是你撸起袖子，与另一党合作，最终达成了协议。现在，我有一个观察。
Over the past year, in my view, that attribute hasn't been in full bloom. And by that I mean, you've gotten this subtext of House Republicans that sincerely want to come and be a part of this national conversation toward solutions, but they've really been stiff-armed by Speaker Pelosi. Now, I know you're not in charge of that chamber, but there really is this dynamic of, frankly, being shut out. 在过去一年里，在我看来，那种特质并没有充分展现。我的意思是，你们这里有一个潜流：众议院共和党人真诚地希望参与这场迈向解决方案的全国对话，但他们实际上被佩洛西议长排挤。我知道你不是那个会议厅的负责人，但确实存在这种被排斥的态势。
When John Boehner and Eric Cantor presented last February to you some substantive job creation, our stimulus alternative, the attack machine began to marginalize Eric -- and we can all look at the articles -- as "Mr. No," and there was this pretty dark story, ultimately, that wasn't productive and wasn't within this sort of framework that you're articulating today. 当约翰·博纳和埃里克·坎托去年2月向你提出一些实质性的就业创造方案——我们的刺激方案替代方案时，攻击机器开始边缘化埃里克——我们都可以看看那些文章——把他塑造成"不先生"，最终出现了一个相当阴暗的故事，没有建设性，也不符合你今天所阐述的那种框架。
So here's the question. Moving forward, I think all of us want to hit the reset button on 2009. How do we move forward? And on the job creation piece in particular, you mentioned Colombia, you mentioned Panama, you mentioned South Korea. Are you willing to work with us, for example, to make sure those FTAs get called, that's no-cost job creation? And ultimately, as you're interacting with world leaders, that's got to put more arrows in your quiver, and that's a very, very powerful tool for us. But the obstacle is, frankly, the politics within the Democratic caucus? 所以问题是：展望未来，我想我们都希望重置2009年。我们如何向前？特别是在就业创造方面，你提到了哥伦比亚、巴拿马、韩国。你是否愿意与我们合作，例如确保那些自由贸易协定被提上议程，那是无成本的就业创造？最终，当你与世界领导人交往时，那会给你更多武器，对我们来说是非常有力的工具。但障碍坦率说就是民主党党团内部的政治？
President Obama: Well, first of all, Peter and I did work together effectively on a whole host of issues. One of our former colleagues is right now running for governor, on the Republican side, in Illinois. In the Republican primary, of course, they're running ads of him saying nice things about me. Poor guy. 奥巴马总统：嗯，首先，彼得和我确实在许多问题上有效合作过。我们的一位前同事现在正在伊利诺伊州共和党方面竞选州长。当然，在共和党初选中，他们正在播放他说我好话的广告。可怜的家伙。
Although that's one of the points that I made earlier. I mean, we've got to be careful about what we say about each other sometimes, because it boxes us in in ways that makes it difficult for us to work together, because our constituents start believing us. They don't know sometimes this is just politics what you guys -- or folks on my side do sometimes. 尽管这正是我之前提出的观点之一。我的意思是，我们有时必须小心我们对彼此所说的话，因为这会让我们陷入僵局，难以合作，因为我们的选民开始相信我们。他们有时不知道这只是政治——你们或我这边的人有时就是这么做的。
So just a tone of civility instead of slash and burn would be helpful. The problem we have sometimes is a media that responds only to slash-and-burn-style politics. You don't get a lot of credit if I say, "You know, I think Paul Ryan is a pretty sincere guy and has a beautiful family." Nobody is going to run that in the newspapers. 所以，仅仅是文明的语气，而非"撕咬与焚烧"，就会有所帮助。我们有时遇到的问题是，媒体只对"撕咬与焚烧"式政治作出反应。如果我说，"嗯，我认为保罗·瑞安是个相当真诚的人，有一个美丽的家庭，"我不会得到多少赞誉。没有报纸会刊登那句话。
Question: [Inaudible] 提问：【听不清】
President Obama: And by the way, in case he's going to get a Republican challenge, I didn't mean it. Don't want to hurt you, man. But on the specifics, I think both sides can take some blame for a sour climate on Capitol Hill. What I can do maybe to help is to try to bring Republican and Democratic leadership together on a more regular basis with me. That's, I think, a failure on my part, is to try to foster better communications even if there's disagreement. And I will try to see if we can do more of that this year. That's on the sort of the general issue. 奥巴马总统：顺便说一句，万一他要面对共和党挑战，我不是那个意思。不想害你，伙计。但在具体问题上，我认为双方都可以为国会山的不良氛围承担一些责任。我也许能做的是，尝试让共和党和民主党领导层与我更定期地会面。我认为，这是我的一点失败——即试图培养更好的沟通，即使在有分歧的情况下。我将尝试今年看看能否多做一些。这是关于总体问题。
On the specific issue of trade, you're right, there are conflicts within and fissures within the Democratic Party. I suspect there are probably going to be some fissures within the Republican Party, as well. I mean, you know, if you went to some of your constituencies, they'd be pretty suspicious about it, new trade agreements, because the suspicion is somehow they're all one way. 关于贸易这个具体问题，你说得对，民主党内存在冲突和裂痕。我 suspect 共和党内可能也会有一些裂痕。我的意思是，如果你去你们的一些选区，他们会对新贸易协定相当怀疑，因为怀疑它们都是单向的。
So part of what we've been trying to do is to make sure that we're getting the enforcement side of this tight, make sure that if we've got a trade agreement with China or other countries, that they are abiding with it -- they're not stealing our intellectual property or making sure that their non-tariff barriers are lowered even as ours are opened up. 所以我们一直在努力做的一部分工作，就是确保我们把执行这一侧抓紧，确保如果我们与中国或其他国家有贸易协定，他们要遵守——他们不偷我们的知识产权，或者确保他们的非关税壁垒随着我们的壁垒开放而降低。
And my hope is, is that we can move forward with some of these trade agreements having built some confidence -- not just among particular constituency groups, but among the American people -- that trade is going to be reciprocal; that it's not just going to be a one-way street. 我的希望是，我们能在建立一些信心的基础上推进其中一些贸易协定——不仅是特定 constituency 群体之间，而且是美国人民之间——贸易将是互惠的；它不会只是单行道。
You are absolutely right though, Peter, when you say, for example, South Korea is a great ally of ours. I mean, when I visited there, there is no country that is more committed to friendship on a whole range of fronts than South Korea. What is also true is that the European Union is about to sign a trade agreement with South Korea, which means right at the moment when they start opening up their markets, the Europeans might get in there before we do. 不过你说得完全正确，彼得，当你说例如韩国是我们伟大的盟友。我的意思是，当我访问那里时，没有哪个国家在一系列方面比韩国更致力于友谊。同样真实的是，欧盟即将与韩国签署贸易协定，这意味着当他们开始开放市场时，欧洲人可能赶在我们前面进入。
So we've got to make sure that we seize these opportunities. I will be talking more about trade this year. It's going to have to be trade that combines opening their markets with an enforcement mechanism, as well as just opening up our markets. I think that's something that all of us would agree on. Let's see if we can execute it over the next several years. All right, is that it? 所以我们必须确保抓住这些机会。今年我将更多谈论贸易。它必须是结合开放他们市场与执行机制的贸易，而不仅仅是开放我们的市场。我想这是我们都认同的。让我们看看能否在未来几年执行它。好了，就这样了吗？
Congressman Pence: Jeb Hensarling, Texas. And that will be it, Mr. President. 彭斯众议员：杰布·亨萨林，得克萨斯州。这就结束了，总统先生。
President Obama: Jim [sic] is going to wrap things up? 奥巴马总统：吉姆【原文如此】要收尾了？
Congressman Pence: Yes, sir. 彭斯众议员：是的，先生。
President Obama: All right. 奥巴马总统：好的。
Congressman Hensarling: Jeb, Mr. President. 亨萨林众议员：我是杰布，总统先生。
President Obama: How are you? 奥巴马总统：你好吗？
Congressman Hensarling: I'm doing well. Mr. President, a year ago I had an opportunity to speak to you about the national debt. And something that you and I have in common is we both have small children. 亨萨林众议员：我很好。总统先生，一年前我有机会与你谈过国家债务。你和我有一个共同点，我们都有小孩。
President Obama: Absolutely. 奥巴马总统：完全正确。
Congressman Hensarling: And I left that conversation really feeling your sincere commitment to ensuring that our children, our nation's children, do not inherit an unconscionable debt. We know that under current law, that government -- the cost of government is due to grow from 20 percent of our economy to 40 percent of our economy, right about the time our children are leaving college and getting that first job. 亨萨林众议员：那次谈话后我真切感受到你的真诚承诺，确保我们的孩子、我们国家的孩子，不会继承一笔不负责任的债务。我们知道，按照现行法律，政府支出——政府成本——将从我们经济的20%增长到40%，正好是在我们的孩子大学毕业、找到第一份工作的时候。
Mr. President, shortly after that conversation a year ago, the Republicans proposed a budget that ensured that government did not grow beyond the historical standard of 20 percent of GDP. It was a budget that actually froze immediately non-defense discretionary spending. It spent $5 trillion less than ultimately what was enacted into law, and unfortunately, I believe that budget was ignored. And since that budget was ignored, what were the old annual deficits under Republicans have now become the monthly deficits under Democrats. The national debt has increased 30 percent. 总统先生，那次谈话后不久，共和党人就提出了一项预算，确保政府不超过GDP占比20%的历史标准。那是一项立即冻结非国防可自由支配支出的预算。它比最终 enacted 成 law 的预算少花5万亿美元，不幸的是，我相信那项预算被忽视了。而自那项预算被忽视后，共和党人时期的一年赤字如今变成了民主党人时期的月度赤字。国家债务增长了30%。
Now, Mr. President, I know you believe -- and I understand the argument, and I respect the view that the spending is necessary due to the recession; many of us believe, frankly, it's part of the problem, not part of the solution. But I understand and I respect your view. 那么，总统先生，我知道你相信——我理解这个论点，也尊重这种观点，即支出因经济衰退而是必要的；我们中很多人坦率地认为，它是问题的一部分，而不是解决方案的一部分。但我理解并尊重你的观点。
But this is what I don't understand, Mr. President. After that discussion, your administration proposed a budget that would triple the national debt over the next 10 years -- surely you don't believe 10 years from now we will still be mired in this recession -- and propose new entitlement spending and move the cost of government to almost 24.5 percent of the economy. 但这就是我不理解的，总统先生。那次讨论之后，你的政府提出了一项将在未来10年使国家债务增加两倍的预算——你肯定不认为10年后我们仍将深陷这场衰退——并提出新的应得权益支出，将政府成本推高到几乎24.5%的经济占比。
Now, very soon, Mr. President, you're due to submit a new budget. And my question is -- 现在很快，总统先生，你就要提交一份新预算。我的问题是——
President Obama: Jeb, I know there's a question in there somewhere, because you're making a whole bunch of assertions, half of which I disagree with, and I'm having to sit here listening to them. At some point I know you're going to let me answer. All right. 奥巴马总统：杰布，我知道这里面藏着个问题，因为你做了一大堆断言，其中一半我不同意，而我不得不坐在这里听。我知道某个时刻你会让我回答。好吧。
Congressman Hensarling: That's the question. You are soon to submit a new budget, Mr. President. Will that new budget, like your old budget, triple the national debt and continue to take us down the path of increasing the cost of government to almost 25 percent of our economy? That's the question, Mr. President. 亨萨林众议员：这就是问题。你很快要提交一份新预算，总统先生。那份新预算会像你的旧预算一样，使国家债务增加两倍，并继续让我们沿着把政府成本增加到几乎经济25%的道路走下去吗？这就是问题，总统先生。
President Obama: Jeb, with all due respect, I've just got to take this last question as an example of how it's very hard to have the kind of bipartisan work that we're going to do, because the whole question was structured as a talking point for running a campaign. 奥巴马总统：杰布，恕我直言，我得把最后这个问题作为一个例子，说明要开展我们想要的两党合作是多么困难，因为整个问题都被构造成了一个竞选用的谈话要点。
Now, look, let's talk about the budget once again, because I'll go through it with you line by line. The fact of the matter is, is that when we came into office, the deficit was $1.3 trillion -- $1.3 [trillion.] So when you say that suddenly I've got a monthly budget that is higher than the -- a monthly deficit that's higher than the annual deficit left by the Republicans, that's factually just not true, and you know it's not true. 那么，听着，让我们再谈谈预算，因为我会和你逐行过一遍。事实是，我们上任时，赤字是1.3万亿美元——1.3万亿。所以当你说我突然有了比共和党人留下的年度赤字还高的月度赤字时，那在事实上就是不真实的，你也知道那不真实。
And what is true is that we came in already with a $1.3 trillion deficit before I had passed any law. What is true is we came in with $8 trillion worth of debt over the next decade -- had nothing to do with anything that we had done. It had to do with the fact that in 2000 when there was a budget surplus of $200 billion, you had a Republican administration and a Republican Congress, and we had two tax cuts that weren't paid for. 而事实是，我们上任时已经有1.3万亿美元的赤字，那时我还没通过任何法律。事实是，我们上任时未来十年已有8万亿美元的债务——这与我们做的任何事都无关。它源于这样一个事实：2000年时有2000亿美元的预算盈余，你们有共和党政府和共和党国会，我们有两项未支付费用的减税。
You had a prescription drug plan -- the biggest entitlement plan, by the way, in several decades -- that was passed without it being paid for. You had two wars that were done through supplementals. And then you had $3 trillion projected because of the lost revenue of this recession. That's $8 trillion. Now, we increased it by a trillion dollars because of the spending that we had to make on the stimulus. I am happy to have any independent fact-checker out there take a look at your presentation versus mine in terms of the accuracy of what I just said. 你们有一项处方药计划——顺便说一下，是几十年来最大的应得权益计划——通过时没有支付来源。你们有两场战争是通过补充拨款进行的。然后你们有3万亿美元因这次衰退导致的收入损失 projected。那就是8万亿。现在，我们因为不得不在刺激方案上支出而增加了1万亿。我很乐意让任何独立的事实核查者看看你的陈述与我的陈述，看看我刚才所说的准确性。
Now, going forward, here's the deal. I think, Paul, for example, head of the budget committee, has looked at the budget and has made a serious proposal. I've read it. I can tell you what's in it. And there are some ideas in there that I would agree with, but there are some ideas that we should have a healthy debate about because I don't agree with them. 那么，展望未来，事情是这样的。我想，保罗，例如预算委员会主席，审视了预算并提出了一个严肃的提案。我读过它。我可以告诉你里面有什么。里面有一些我会同意的想法，但也有一些我们应该健康辩论的想法，因为我不同意。
The major driver of our long-term liabilities, everybody here knows, is Medicare and Medicaid and our health care spending. Nothing comes close. Social Security we could probably fix the same way Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan sat down together and they could figure something out. That is manageable. Medicare and Medicaid -- massive problem down the road. That's where -- that's going to be what our children have to worry about. 我们长期负债的主要驱动力，每个人都知道，是Medicare、Medicaid和我们的医疗保健支出。没有什么能与之相比。社会保障我们大概可以像蒂普·奥尼尔和罗纳德·里根坐下来那样解决，他们能想出办法。那是可控的。Medicare和Medicaid——未来路上的巨大问题。那才是——那才是我们的孩子要担心的。
Now, Paul's approach -- and I want to be careful not simplifying this, because I know you've got a lot of detail in your plan -- but if I understand it correctly, would say we're going to provide vouchers of some sort for current Medicare recipients at the current level -- 那么，保罗的方案——我想小心不要简化它，因为我知道你的计划里有很多细节——但如果我没理解错，会说我们将为当前的Medicare受益人按当前水平提供某种代金券——
Congressman Ryan: No. 瑞安众议员：不。
President Obama: No? 奥巴马总统：不？
Congressman Ryan: People 55 and above -- 瑞安众议员：55岁及以上的人——
President Obama: Fifty-five and -- well, no, I understand. I mean, there's a grandfathering in, but just for future beneficiaries, right? That's why I said I didn't want to -- I want to make sure that I'm not being unfair to your proposal, but I just want to point out that I've read it. And the basic idea would be that at some point we hold Medicare cost per recipient constant as a way of making sure that that doesn't go way out of whack, and I'm sure there are some details that -- 奥巴马总统：55岁及以上——嗯，不，我明白。我的意思是，有 grandfathering，但只是针对未来的受益人，对吧？这就是为什么我说我不想——我想确保我没有不公平地对待你的提案，但我只是想指出我读过它。基本想法是，在某个时候我们按人均Medicare成本保持恒定，以确保它不会失控，我相信有些细节——
Congressman Ryan: We drew it as a blend of inflation and health inflation, the point of our plan is -- because Medicare, as you know, is a $38 trillion unfunded liability -- it has to be reform for younger generations because it won't exist because it's going bankrupt. And the premise of our idea is, look, why not give people the same kind of health care plan we here have in Congress? That's the kind of reform we're proposing for Medicare. 瑞安众议员：我们把它设计为通胀和医疗通胀的混合，我们计划的重点是——因为Medicare正如你所知，是一笔38万亿美元的无资金负债——它必须为年轻一代改革，否则它将不存在，因为它正在破产。我们想法的前提是，听着，为什么不给人我们在国会这里拥有的那种医疗保险方案呢？那就是我们为Medicare提出的改革。
President Obama: No, I understand. Right, right. Well, look, as I said before, this is an entirely legitimate proposal. The problem is twofold: One is that depending on how it's structured, if recipients are suddenly getting a plan that has their reimbursement rates going like this, but health care costs are still going up like that, then over time the way we're saving money is essentially by capping what they're getting relative to their costs. 奥巴马总统：不，我明白。对，对。嗯，听着，正如我之前所说，这完全是一个合理的提案。问题有两方面：一是取决于其结构，如果受益人突然获得一个报销率这样变化的方案，但医疗成本仍在那样上涨，那么随着时间推移，我们省钱的方式本质上就是通过相对他们的成本来 cap 他们所得。
Now, I just want to point out -- and this brings me to the second problem -- when we made a very modest proposal as part of our package, our health care reform package, to eliminate the subsidies going to insurance companies for Medicare Advantage, we were attacked across the board, by many on your aisle, for slashing Medicare. You remember? We're going to start cutting benefits for seniors. That was the story that was perpetrated out there -- scared the dickens out of a lot of seniors. 现在，我只想指出——这也引出第二个问题——当我们在我们的方案、我们的医疗改革方案中提出一个非常温和的提议，取消给保险公司Medicare Advantage的补贴时，我们在你们的过道那边被许多人攻击，说我们大幅削减Medicare。你记得吗？我们要开始削减老年人的福利。那是一个被散布的故事——吓坏了许多老年人。
No, no, but here's my point. If the main question is going to be what do we do about Medicare costs, any proposal that Paul makes will be painted, factually, from the perspective of those who disagree with it, as cutting benefits over the long term. Paul, I don't think you disagree with that, that there is a political vulnerability to doing anything that tinkers with Medicare. And that's probably the biggest savings that are obtained through Paul's plan. 不，不，但我的要点是。如果主要问题将是我们如何应对Medicare成本，那么保罗提出的任何提案，从不同意者的角度看，事实上都会被描绘为长期削减福利。保罗，我不认为你不同意这一点，即对Medicare做任何改动都存在政治上的脆弱性。而那大概是保罗方案中可获得的最大节省。
And I raise that not because we shouldn't have a series discussion about it. I raise that because we're not going to be able to do anything about any of these entitlements if what we do is characterized, whatever proposals are put out there, as, well, you know, that's -- the other party is being irresponsible; the other party is trying to hurt our senior citizens; that the other party is doing X, Y, Z. 我提出这一点不是因为我们不应当就此进行认真的讨论。我提出这一点是因为，如果我们所做的——无论提出什么提案——都被描绘成，嗯，那个党派不负责任；那个党派试图伤害我们的老年人；那个党派在做X、Y、Z——那么我们对任何这些应得权益都做不成什么。
That's why I say if we're going to frame these debates in ways that allow us to solve them, then we can't start off by figuring out, A, who's to blame; B, how can we make the American people afraid of the other side. And unfortunately, that's how our politics works right now. And that's how a lot of our discussion works. 这就是为什么我说，如果我们要以能让我们解决它们的方式构建这些辩论，那我们就不能一开始就弄清楚：A，谁该受责备；B，我们如何让美国人民害怕对方。而不幸的是，这就是我们的政治现在的运作方式。这也是我们很多讨论的运作方式。
That's how we start off -- every time somebody speaks in Congress, the first thing they do, they stand up and all the talking points -- I see Frank Luntz up here sitting in the front. He's already polled it, and he said, you know, the way you're really going to -- I've done a focus group and the way we're going to really box in Obama on this one or make Pelosi look bad on that one -- I know, I like Frank, we've had conversations between Frank and I. But that's how we operate. It's all tactics, and it's not solving problems. 这就是我们的开场方式——每次有人在国会发言，他们做的第一件事就是站起来、抛出所有谈话要点——我看到弗兰克·伦茨坐在前排。他已经做过民调了，他说，你知道，你真正要——我做过一个焦点小组，我们如何在这一点上真正困住奥巴马，或在那一点上让佩洛西难看——我知道，我喜欢弗兰克，弗兰克和我有过对话。但这就是我们的运作方式。全是策略，而不是解决问题。
And so the question is, at what point can we have a serious conversation about Medicare and its long-term liability, or a serious question about -- a serious conversation about Social Security, or a serious conversation about budget and debt in which we're not simply trying to position ourselves politically. That's what I'm committed to doing. We won't agree all the time in getting it done, but I'm committed to doing it. 所以问题是，我们什么时候能就Medicare及其长期负债进行一次严肃的对话，或者就——社会保障进行一次严肃的对话，或者就预算和债务进行一次我们不是单纯试图在政治上定位自己的严肃对话。这就是我致力于做的。我们不会总是意见一致，但我致力于完成它。
Congressman Pence: Take one more? 彭斯众议员：再问一个？
President Obama: You know, I've already gone over time. But I'll be happy to take your question, Congressman, offline. You can give me a call. All right, thank you, everybody. God bless you. God bless the United States of America. Thank you, everybody. 奥巴马总统：要知道，我已经超时了。但我很乐意线下回答你的问题，议员。你可以给我打电话。好了，谢谢大家。上帝保佑你们。上帝保佑美利坚合众国。谢谢大家。