LEHRER: Good evening from the Magness Arena at the University of Denver in Denver, Colorado. I'm Jim Lehrer of the "PBS NewsHour," and I welcome you to the first of the 2012 Presidential debates between President Barack Obama, the Democratic nominee, and former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney, the Republican nominee. LEHRER: 晚上好，这里是科罗拉多州丹佛市丹佛大学马格内斯体育馆。我是「PBS新闻一小时」的吉姆·莱勒，欢迎大家来到2012年总统大选首场辩论。这场辩论在民主党总统候选人巴拉克·奥巴马总统和共和党候选人、前马萨诸塞州州长米特·罗姆尼之间进行。
This debate and the next three -- two Presidential, one vice Presidential -- are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Tonight's 90 minutes will be about domestic issues and will follow a format designed by the commission. There will be six roughly 15-minute segments with two-minute answers for the first question, then open discussion for the remainder of each segment. 本场辩论以及接下来的三场——两场总统辩论和一场副总统辩论——由总统辩论委员会主办。今晚的90分钟将聚焦国内议题，采用该委员会设计的辩论形式。届时将分为六个约15分钟的环节，第一个问题各有两分钟作答时间，每个环节的剩余时间为开放式讨论。
Thousands of people offered suggestions on segment subjects or questions via the Internet and other means, but I made the final selections. And for the record, they were not submitted for approval to the commission or the candidates. 数以千计的民众通过互联网和其他渠道就各环节议题和问题提出了建议，但最终选题由我本人决定。需要说明的是，这些选题并未提交委员会或候选人审批。
The segments as I announced in advance will be three on the economy and one each on health care, the role of government and governing, with an emphasis throughout on differences, specifics and choices. Both candidates will also have two-minute closing statements. 正如我事先公布的，各环节安排为三个关于经济，其余分别关于医疗保健、政府的角色与治理，贯穿全程将着重于双方分歧、具体细节和政策选择。两位候选人还将各有两分钟的总结发言。
The audience here in the hall has promised to remain silent -- no cheers, applause, boos, hisses, among other noisy distracting things, so we may all concentrate on what the candidates have to say. There is a noise exception right now, though, as we welcome President Obama and Governor Romney. 现场观众已承诺保持安静——不欢呼、不鼓掌、不喝倒彩、不发出嘘声及其他干扰噪音，以便我们都能集中注意力聆听候选人的发言。不过，现在是一个例外，让我们欢迎奥巴马总统和罗姆尼州长出场。
Gentlemen, welcome to you both. Let's start the economy, segment one, and let's begin with jobs. What are the major differences between the two of you about how you would go about creating new jobs? You have two minutes. Each of you have two minutes to start. A coin toss has determined, Mr. President, you go first. 两位先生，欢迎你们。让我们进入第一个环节——经济议题，先从就业开始。在创造新就业岗位方面，你们两位之间的主要分歧是什么？每人有两分钟时间作答。投硬币的结果决定，总统先生，您先回答。
President Obama: Well, thank you very much, Jim, for this opportunity. I want to thank Governor Romney and the University of Denver for your hospitality. President Obama: 非常感谢你，吉姆，给我这个机会。我也要感谢罗姆尼州长和丹佛大学的盛情款待。
There are a lot of points I want to make tonight, but the most important one is that 20 years ago I became the luckiest man on Earth because Michelle Obama agreed to marry me. 今晚我有很多要点要谈，但最重要的一点是，20年前我成为了地球上最幸运的人，因为米歇尔·奥巴马同意嫁给我。
And so I just want to wish, Sweetie, you happy anniversary and let you know that a year from now we will not be celebrating it in front of 40 million people. 所以我只想说，亲爱的，祝你结婚纪念日快乐，也想让你知道，一年后我们不会在4000万人面前庆祝了。
You know, four years ago we went through the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression: millions of jobs were lost; the auto industry was on the brink of collapse; the financial system had frozen up. 大家知道，四年前我们经历了自大萧条以来最严重的金融危机：数百万人失去了工作；汽车工业濒临崩溃；金融系统全面冻结。
And because of the resilience and the determination of the American people, we've begun to fight our way back. Over the last 30 months, we've seen 5 million jobs in the private sector created. The auto industry has come roaring back. And housing has begun to rise. 凭借美国人民的韧性和决心，我们已经开始重新站起来。在过去30个月里，私营部门创造了500万个就业岗位。汽车工业强劲复苏。房地产市场也开始回暖。
But we all know that we've still got a lot of work to do. And so the question here tonight is not where we've been, but where we're going. 但我们都很清楚，我们还有很多工作要做。因此今晚的问题不在于我们走过了怎样的路，而在于我们将走向何方。
Governor Romney has a perspective that says if we cut taxes, skewed towards the wealthy, and roll back regulations, that we'll be better off. I've got a different view. 罗姆尼州长的观点是，如果我们减税——向富人倾斜的减税——并放松监管，我们就会过得更好。我有不同的看法。
I think we've got to invest in education and training. I think it's important for us to develop new sources of energy here in America, that we change our tax code to make sure that we're helping small businesses and companies that are investing here in the United States, that we take some of the money that we're saving as we wind down two wars to rebuild America and that we reduce our deficit in a balanced way that allows us to make these critical investments. 我认为我们必须在教育和培训方面投资。我认为在美国开发新能源很重要，修改我们的税法以确保我们帮助的是在美国投资的小企业和公司，把结束两场战争省下的一部分资金用于重建美国，并以平衡的方式削减赤字，使我们能够进行这些关键投资。
Now, it ultimately is going to be up to the voters -- to you -- which path we should take. Are we going to double on top-down economic policies that helped to get us into this mess or do we embrace a new economic patriotism that says America does best when the middle class does best? And I'm looking forward to having that debate. 当然，最终要由选民——由你们——来决定我们应走哪条路。我们是要加倍推行那些把我们拖入困境的自上而下经济政策，还是要拥抱一种新的经济爱国主义——即中产阶级过得好，美国才会好？我很期待今晚就这个问题展开辩论。
LEHRER: Governor Romney, two minutes. LEHRER: 罗姆尼州长，两分钟。
Governor Romney: Thank you, Jim. It's an honor to be here with you, and I appreciate the chance to be with the President. I'm pleased to be at the University of Denver, appreciate their welcome, and also the Presidential Commission on these debates. Governor Romney: 谢谢你，吉姆。很荣幸能和你在此同台，也感谢有机会与总统同台。我很高兴来到丹佛大学，感谢他们的欢迎，也感谢总统辩论委员会。
And congratulations to you, Mr. President, on your anniversary. I'm sure this was the most romantic place you could imagine, here -- here with me. So I...Congratulations. This is obviously a very tender topic. I've had the occasion over the last couple of years of meeting people across the country. I was in Dayton, Ohio, and a woman grabbed my arm and she said, "I've been out of work since May. Can you help me?" 总统先生，也祝您结婚纪念日快乐。我相信这是你能想象到的最浪漫的地方了——和我一起在这里。所以……恭喜。这显然是一个非常温情的话题。过去几年里，我有机会在全国各地见到很多人。我在俄亥俄州代顿的时候，一位女士拉住我的手臂说：「我从五月起就失业了。你能帮帮我吗？」
Ann yesterday was at a rally in Denver and a woman came up to her with a baby in her arms and said, "Ann, my husband has had four jobs in three years, part-time jobs. He's lost his most recent job and we've now just lost our home. Can you help us?" And the answer is, yes, we can help, but it's going to take a different path. Not the one we've been on, not the one the President describes as a top-down, cut taxes for the rich. That's not what I'm going to do. 安昨天在丹佛的一场集会上，一位女士抱着婴儿走到她面前说：「安，我丈夫三年内做了四份工作，都是兼职。他最近又失去了工作，现在我们也失去了我们的房子。你能帮帮我们吗？」答案是，是的，我们可以帮忙，但需要走一条不同的路。不是我们一直在走的那条，也不是总统所说的自上而下、为富人减税的那条。那不是我要做的。
My plan has five basic parts. One, get us energy independent, North American energy independent. That creates about 4 million jobs. Number two, open up more trade, particularly in Latin America. Crack down on China, if and when they cheat. Number three, make sure our people have the skills they need to succeed and the best schools in the world. We're far away from that now. Number four, get to us a balanced budget. Number five, champion small business. 我的计划有五个基本部分。第一，实现能源独立，北美能源独立。这能创造大约400万个就业岗位。第二，拓展更多贸易，特别是在拉丁美洲。在中国有不公平行为时予以打击。
It's small business that creates the jobs in America, and over the last four years, small business people have decided that America may not be the place to open a new business because new business startups are down to a 30-year low. 第三，确保我们的人民拥有成功所需的技能，并拥有世界上最好的学校。我们现在离这个目标还很远。第四，实现预算平衡。第五，扶持小企业。美国是靠小企业创造就业的，但在过去四年里，小企业主们认为美国可能不再是开办新企业的好地方，因为新企业创办率已降至30年来的最低点。
Now, I'm concerned that the path that we're on has just been unsuccessful. The President has a view very similar to the view he had when he ran four years, that a bigger government, spending more, taxing more, regulating more -- if you will, trickle-down government -- would work. That's not the right answer for America. I'll restore the vitality that gets America working again. Thank you. 我担心的是，我们正在走的这条路已经失败了。总统的观点与他四年前竞选时非常相似，即更大的政府、更多的开支、更高的税收、更多的监管——如果你愿意的话，可以称之为「自上而下的政府」——会起作用。这不是美国正确的答案。我将恢复让美国重新运转起来的活力。谢谢。
LEHRER: Mr. President, please respond directly to what the governor just said about trickle-down -- his trick-down approach, as he said yours is. LEHRER: 总统先生，请直接回应州长刚才关于「自上而下」的说法——他说你的方式是自上而下，而他的方式也是如此。
President Obama: Well, let me talk specifically about what I think we need to do. First, we've got to improve our education system and we've made enormous progress drawing on ideas both from Democrats and Republicans that are already starting to show gains in some of the toughest to deal with schools. We've got a program called Race to the Top that has prompted reforms in 46 states around the country, raising standards, improving how we train teachers. President Obama: 好的，让我具体谈谈我认为我们需要做什么。首先，我们必须改善我们的教育体系，我们借鉴了民主党和共和党双方的想法，已经取得了巨大进展，在一些最困难的学校中开始显现成效。我们有一个叫做「力争上游」的计划，已推动全国46个州进行改革，提高了标准，改进了教师培训方式。
So now I want to hire another 100,000 new math and science teachers, and create 2 million more slots in our community colleges so that people can get trained for the jobs that are out there right now. And I want to make sure that we keep tuition low for our young people. 现在，我希望再新聘10万名数学和科学教师，并在社区大学增加200万个学位，让人们能够接受现有就业岗位所需的培训。我还要确保让我们的年轻人保持低学费。
When it comes to our tax code, Governor Romney and I both agree that our corporate tax rate is too high, so I want to lower it, particularly for manufacturing, taking it down to 25 percent. But I also want to close those loopholes that are giving incentives for companies that are shipping jobs overseas. I want to provide tax breaks for companies that are investing here in the United States. 在税法方面，罗姆尼州长和我都同意我们的企业税率太高，所以我希望降低它，特别是对制造业，将其降至25%。但我也希望堵住那些激励企业将就业岗位转移到海外的漏洞。我希望为在美国本土投资的企业提供税收减免。
On energy, Governor Romney and I, we both agree that we've got to boost American energy production, and oil and natural gas production are higher than they've been in years. But I also believe that we've got to look at the energy sources of the future, like wind and solar and biofuels, and make those investments. 在能源方面，罗姆尼州长和我都同意我们必须提高美国的能源产量，石油和天然气产量已达到多年来最高水平。但我也认为我们必须着眼于未来的能源，如风能、太阳能和生物燃料，并在这方面进行投资。
So all of this is possible. Now, in order for us to do it, we do have to close our deficit, and one of the things I'm sure we'll be discussing tonight is, how do we deal with our tax code? And how do we make sure that we are reducing spending in a responsible way, but also, how do we have enough revenue to make those investments? 所有这些都是可行的。当然，要做到这些，我们确实需要削减赤字，我确信今晚我们会讨论的一个问题是：我们如何处理税法？我们如何以负责任的方式削减开支，同时又如何确保有足够的收入来进行这些投资？
And this is where there's a difference, because Governor Romney's central economic plan calls for a $5 trillion tax cut -- on top of the extension of the Bush tax cuts -- that's another trillion dollars -- and $2 trillion in additional military spending that the military hasn't asked for. That's $8 trillion. How we pay for that, reduce the deficit, and make the investments that we need to make, without dumping those costs onto middle-class Americans, I think is one of the central questions of this campaign. 这就是分歧所在，因为罗姆尼州长的核心经济计划要求5万亿美元的减税——再加上延长布什时期的减税政策——又是1万亿美元——以及2万亿美元军方并未要求的额外军事开支。总共是8万亿美元。如何为此买单、如何削减赤字、如何进行必要的投资，同时又不把这些成本转嫁到美国中产阶级身上，我认为这是本次竞选的核心问题之一。
LEHRER: Both of you have spoken about a lot of different things, and we're going to try to get through them in as specific a way as we possibly can. But, first, Governor Romney, do you have a question that you'd like to ask the President directly about something he just said? LEHRER: 你们两位都谈到了很多不同的问题，我们将尽可能具体地逐一梳理。但首先，罗姆尼州长，你有没有想直接就总统刚才所说的话向他提出的问题？
Governor Romney: Well, sure. I'd like to clear up the record and go through it piece by piece. Governor Romney: 当然有。我想澄清一下事实，逐条来谈。
First of all, I don't have a $5 trillion tax cut. I don't have a tax cut of a scale that you're talking about. My view is that we ought to provide tax relief to people in the middle class. But I'm not going to reduce the share of taxes paid by high-income people. High-income people are doing just fine in this economy. They'll do fine whether you're President or I am. 首先，我没有5万亿美元的减税计划。我没有你所说的那种规模的减税。我的观点是我们应该为中产阶级提供税收减免。但我不会降低高收入人群缴纳的税收比例。高收入人群在当前经济中表现得很好。无论你当总统还是我当总统，他们都会过得很好。
The people who are having the hard time right now are middle- income Americans. Under the President's policies, middle-income Americans have been buried. They're just being crushed. Middle-income Americans have seen their income come down by $4,300. This is a -- this is a tax in and of itself. I'll call it the economy tax. It's been crushing. 真正正在经历困难的是中等收入的美国人。在总统的政策下，中等收入美国人已经被压垮了。他们简直被压碎了。中等收入美国人的收入下降了4300美元。这本身就是一种税。我称之为「经济税」。它的压迫是毁灭性的。
At the same time, gasoline prices have doubled under the President. Electric rates are up. Food prices are up. Health care costs have gone up by $2,500 a family. Middle-income families are being crushed. 与此同时，在总统任期内汽油价格翻了一番。电费上涨了。食品价格上涨了。每个家庭的医疗保健成本增加了2500美元。中等收入家庭正被压垮。
And so the question is how to get them going again. And I've described it. It's energy and trade, the right kind of training programs, balancing our budget and helping small business. Those are the -- the cornerstones of my plan. 因此问题在于如何让他们重新振作起来。我已经描述过了。就是能源和贸易，正确的培训项目，平衡预算以及扶持小企业。这些是我计划的基石。
But the President mentioned a couple of other ideas I'll just note. First, education. I agree: Education is key, particularly the future of our economy. But our training programs right now, we've got 47 of them, housed in the federal government, reporting to eight different agencies. Overhead is overwhelming. We've got to get those dollars back to the states and go to the workers so they can create their own pathways to get in the training they need for jobs that will really help them. 但总统提到了几个其他想法，我也要说明一下。第一，教育。我同意：教育是关键，尤其对我们经济的未来而言。但我们现在的培训项目有47个，设在联邦政府内，向8个不同的机构汇报。管理费用过于庞大。我们必须把这些资金下放到各州，直接交给工人，让他们能够找到自己的途径，接受真正能帮助他们就业的培训。
The second area, taxation, we agree, we ought to bring the tax rates down. And I do, both for corporations and for individuals. But in order for us not to lose revenue, have the government run out of money, I also lower deductions and credits and exemptions, so that we keep taking in the same money when you also account for growth. 第二个领域，税收，我们同意，应该降低税率。我确实要降低，无论是企业还是个人。但为了不减少收入、不让政府没钱，我也会降低扣除额、抵免额和免税额，这样在考虑经济增长因素后，我们能保持相同的税收收入。
The third area, energy. Energy is critical, and the President pointed out correctly that production of oil and gas in the U.S. is up. But not due to his policies. In spite of his policies. 第三个领域，能源。能源至关重要，总统正确地指出美国石油和天然气产量增加了。但这不是因为他的政策，而是尽管有他的政策。
Mr. President, all of the increase in natural gas and oil has happened on private land, not on government land. On government land, your administration has cut the number of permits and licenses in half. If I'm President, I'll double them, and also get the -- the oil from offshore and Alaska. And I'll bring that pipeline in from Canada. 总统先生，天然气和石油产量的所有增长都发生在私人土地上，不在政府土地上。在政府土地上，你的政府将许可证和执照的数量削减了一半。如果我当总统，我会把它们翻一番，同时也要获取近海和阿拉斯加的石油。我还要把加拿大的输油管道引进来。
And, by the way, I like coal. I'm going to make sure we can continue to burn clean coal. People in the coal industry feel like it's getting crushed by your policies. I want to get America and North America energy independent so we can create those jobs. 顺便说一句，我喜欢煤炭。我要确保我们能继续燃烧清洁煤。煤炭行业的人觉得他们正在被你的政策压垮。我要让美国和北美实现能源独立，这样我们就能创造那些就业岗位。
And finally, with regards to that tax cut, look, I'm not looking to cut massive taxes and to reduce the -- the revenues going to the government. My -- my number-one principal is, there will be no tax cut that adds to the deficit. I want to underline that: no tax cut that adds to the deficit. 最后，关于减税的问题，听着，我不打算大规模减税、减少政府的收入。我的第一原则是：不会有任何减税增加赤字。我要强调这一点：不会有任何减税增加赤字。
But I do want to reduce the burden being paid by middle-income Americans. And I -- and to do that, that also means I cannot reduce the burden paid by high-income Americans. So any -- any language to the contrary is simply not accurate. 但我确实想减轻中等收入美国人的负担。要做到这一点，也意味着我不能降低高收入美国人的负担。因此任何相反的说法都是不准确的。
LEHRER: Mr. President? LEHRER: 总统先生？
President Obama: Well, I think -- let's talk about taxes, because I think it's instructive. Now, four years ago, when I stood on this stage, I said that I would cut taxes for middle-class families. And that's exactly what I did. We cut taxes for middle-class families by about $3,600. President Obama: 好的，我想——让我们来谈谈税收，因为我觉得这很有说明意义。四年前，当我站在这个讲台上时，我说过我会为中产阶级家庭减税。这正是我所做的。我们为中产阶级家庭减税约3600美元。
And the reason is, because I believe that we do best when the middle class is doing well. And by giving them those tax cuts, they had a little more money in their pocket, and so maybe they can buy a new car. They are certainly in a better position to weather the extraordinary recession that we went through. They can buy a computer for their kid who's going off to college, which means they're spending more money, businesses have more customers, businesses make more profits, and then hire more workers. 原因是，我相信中产阶级过得好，我们才能好。通过给他们减税，他们口袋里多了一些钱，也许他们可以买辆新车。他们肯定更有能力应对我们经历的这场非同寻常的衰退。他们可以为上大学的孩子买台电脑，这意味着他们花了更多的钱，企业有了更多顾客，企业赚取更多利润，然后雇佣更多工人。
Now, Governor Romney's proposal that he has been promoting for 18 months calls for a $5 trillion tax cut, on top of $2 trillion of additional spending for our military. And he is saying that he is going to pay for it by closing loopholes and deductions. The problem is that he's been asked over 100 times how you would close those deductions and loopholes, and he hasn't been able to identify them. But I'm going to make an important point here, Jim. 而罗姆尼州长18个月来一直在推广的提案，要求5万亿美元的减税，外加2万亿美元的额外军事开支。他说他将通过堵住漏洞和取消扣除来为此买单。问题是，他被问了一百多次如何堵住这些扣除和漏洞，他却一直无法具体说明。但我要在这里说一个重要的观点，吉姆。
LEHRER: All right. LEHRER: 好的。
President Obama: When you add up all the loopholes and deductions that upper-income individuals can -- are currently taking advantage of, you take those all away, you don't come close to paying for $5 trillion in tax cuts and $2 trillion in additional military spending. President Obama: 当你把高收入人群目前可以利用的所有漏洞和扣除额加起来，全部取消掉，也远远不够为5万亿减税和2万亿额外军事开支买单。
And that's why independent studies looking at this said the only way to meet Governor Romney's pledge of not reducing the deficit or -- or -- or not adding to the deficit is by burdening middle-class families. The average middle-class family with children would pay about $2,000 more. 这就是为什么独立研究在审视这一方案后表示，要兑现罗姆尼州长不减少赤字——或者说不增加赤字的承诺，唯一的办法就是加重中产阶级家庭的负担。有孩子的中等收入家庭平均将多缴约2000美元。
Now, that's not my analysis. That's the analysis of economists who have looked at this. And -- and that kind of top -- top-down economics, where folks at the top are doing well, so the average person making $3 million is getting a $250,000 tax break, while middle-class families are burdened further, that's not what I believe is a recipe for economic growth. 这不是我的分析。这是研究过这一方案的经济学家们的分析。那种自上而下的经济学——顶层的人过得好，所以平均收入300万的人获得25万美元的税收减免，而中产阶级家庭负担更重——我认为那不是经济增长的良方。
LEHRER: All right. What is the difference? Let's just stay on taxes. Just -- let's just stay on taxes for [inaudible]. What is the difference... LEHRER: 好的。分歧在哪里？我们继续谈税收。就——让我们继续谈税收方面[听不清]。分歧是什么……
Governor Romney: Well, but -- but virtually -- virtually everything he just said about my tax plan is inaccurate. So if the tax plan he described were a tax plan I was asked to support, I'd say absolutely not. I'm not looking for a $5 trillion tax cut. What I've said is I won't put in place a tax cut that adds to the deficit. That's part one. So there's no economist that can say Mitt Romney's tax plan adds $5 trillion if I say I will not add to the deficit with my tax plan. Governor Romney: 但——但他刚才说的关于我的税收计划的几乎每一句话都不准确。如果他描述的那个税收计划是我被要求支持的，我会说绝对不行。我不是在寻求5万亿美元的减税。我说过的是，我不会实施任何增加赤字的减税。这是第一点。所以如果我说我的税收计划不会增加赤字，那就没有哪个经济学家能说米特·罗姆尼的税收计划会增加5万亿赤字。
Number two, I will not reduce the share paid by high-income individuals. I know that you and your running mate keep saying that and I know it's a popular thing to say with a lot of people, but it's just not the case. Look, I've got five boys. I'm used to people saying something that's not always true, but just keep on repeating it and ultimately hoping I'll believe it. But that -- that is not the case. All right? I will not reduce the taxes paid by high-income Americans. 第二，我不会降低高收入人群缴纳的税收比例。我知道你和你的竞选搭档一直在这么说，我知道这对很多人来说是受欢迎的说法，但事实并非如此。听着，我有五个儿子。我习惯了人们说不总是真实的话，但就是不断重复，最终希望我会相信。但事实并非如此。好吗？我不会降低高收入美国人的税收。
And number three, I will not under any circumstances raise taxes on middle-income families. I will lower taxes on middle-income families. Now, you cite a study. There are six other studies that looked at the study you describe and say it's completely wrong. I saw a study that came out today that said you're going to raise taxes by $3,000 to $4,000 on middle-income families. 第三，我在任何情况下都不会对中等收入家庭增税。我会降低中等收入家庭的税收。你引用了一项研究。还有另外六项研究审视了你所描述的那项研究，并说它完全错误。我看到今天发布的一项研究说你要对中等收入家庭增税3000到4000美元。
There are all these studies out there. But let's get at the bottom line. That is, I want to bring down rates. I want to bring the rates down, at the same time lower deductions and exemptions and credits and so forth, so we keep getting the revenue we need. And you'd think, well, then why lower the rates? 有很多各种各样的研究。但让我们回到关键问题。那就是，我要降低税率。我要降低税率，同时降低扣除额、免税额和抵免额等，这样我们就能继续获得所需的收入。你可能会想，那为什么要降低税率呢？
And the reason is because small business pays that individual rate; 54 percent of America's workers work in businesses that are taxed not at the corporate tax rate, but at the individual tax rate. And if we lower that rate, they will be able to hire more people. For me, this is about jobs. This is about getting jobs for the American people. 原因是小企业按个人所得税率纳税；美国54%的工人在按个人所得税率而非企业所得税率征税的企业中工作。如果我们降低那个税率，他们就能雇佣更多人。对我来说，这是关于就业的问题。这是关于为美国人民创造就业的问题。
LEHRER: That's where we started. Yeah. Do you challenge what the governor just said about his own plan? LEHRER: 这正是我们开始的地方。是的。你对州长刚才关于他自己计划的说法有异议吗？
President Obama: Well, for 18 months he's been running on this tax plan. And now, five weeks before the election, he's saying that his big, bold idea is, "Never mind." President Obama: 18个月来他一直以这个税收计划竞选。现在，距大选还有五周，他说他的宏大计划是「算了，别在意了」。
And the fact is that if you are lowering the rates the way you described, Governor, then it is not possible to come up with enough deductions and loopholes that only affect high-income individuals to avoid either raising the deficit or burdening the middle class. It's -- it's math. It's arithmetic. 事实是，如果你按照你描述的方式降低税率，州长，那就不可能找到足够多只影响高收入人群的扣除和漏洞来避免要么增加赤字、要么加重中产阶级负担。这是——这是数学。这是算术。
Now, Governor Romney and I do share a deep interest in encouraging small-business growth. So at the same time that my tax plan has already lowered taxes for 98 percent of families, I also lowered taxes for small businesses 18 times. And what I want to do is continue the tax rates -- the tax cuts that we put into place for small businesses and families. 罗姆尼州长和我确实都对鼓励小企业增长有着深切关注。所以在我的税收计划已经为98%的家庭减税的同时，我还18次为小企业减税。我想做的是继续维持我们为小企业和家庭实施的税率——减税政策。
But I have said that for incomes over $250,000 a year, that we should go back to the rates that we had when Bill Clinton was President, when we created 23 million new jobs, went from deficit to surplus, and created a whole lot of millionaires to boot. 但我说过，对于年收入超过25万美元的人，我们应该回到比尔·克林顿担任总统时的税率，那时我们创造了2300万个新就业岗位，从赤字变为盈余，还造就了一大批百万富翁。
And the reason this is important is because by doing that, we cannot only reduce the deficit, we cannot only encourage job growth through small businesses, but we're also able to make the investments that are necessary in education or in energy. 这一点之所以重要，是因为通过这样做，我们不仅能减少赤字，不仅能通过小企业鼓励就业增长，我们还能够进行教育和能源方面必要的投资。
And we do have a difference, though, when it comes to definitions of small business. Under -- under my plan, 97 percent of small businesses would not see their income taxes go up. Governor Romney says, well, those top 3 percent, they're the job creators, they'd be burdened. 不过在小企业的定义上，我们确实存在分歧。在我的计划下，97%的小企业不会看到所得税增加。罗姆尼州长说，那顶层3%，他们是就业创造者，他们会受到负担。
But under Governor Romney's definition, there are a whole bunch of millionaires and billionaires who are small businesses. Donald Trump is a small business. Now, I know Donald Trump doesn't like to think of himself as small anything, but -- but that's how you define small businesses if you're getting business income. 但按照罗姆尼州长的定义，一大批百万富翁和亿万富翁也是小企业。唐纳德·特朗普也算小企业。当然，我知道唐纳德·特朗普不喜欢把自己想成任何「小」的东西，但——但如果你获得的是经营收入，那就是这样定义小企业的。
And that kind of approach, I believe, will not grow our economy, because the only way to pay for it without either burdening the middle class or blowing up our deficit is to make drastic cuts in things like education, making sure that we are continuing to invest in basic science and research, all the things that are helping America grow. And I think that would be a mistake. 我相信那种方式不会促进我们的经济增长，因为在不增加中产阶级负担或不使赤字失控的情况下为其买单的唯一方法，就是在教育等方面大幅削减开支，不再确保我们继续投资基础科学和研究，而这些都是帮助美国增长的事情。我认为那将是一个错误。
LEHRER: All right. LEHRER: 好的。
Governor Romney: Jim, let me just come back on that -- on that point, which is these... Governor Romney: 吉姆，让我回到那一点上，就是这些……
LEHRER: Just for the -- just for record... LEHRER: 只是为了——做个记录……
Governor Romney: ... the small businesses we're talking about... Governor Romney: ……我们谈论的那些小企业……
LEHRER: Excuse me. Excuse me. Just so everybody understands, we're way over our first 15 minutes. LEHRER: 打扰一下。打扰一下。让大家知道一下，我们已经远远超过了第一个15分钟。
Governor Romney: It's fun, isn't it? Governor Romney: 很有趣，不是吗？
LEHRER: It's OK, it's great. No problem. Well, you all don't have -- you don't have a problem, I don't have a problem, because we're still on the economy. We're going to come back to taxes. I want move on to the deficit and a lot of other things, too. OK, but go ahead, sir. LEHRER: 没关系，很好。没问题。你们都不用——你们没有问题，我也没有问题，因为我们还在经济议题上。我们会回到税收问题。我还想转到赤字和很多其他议题。好的，请继续，先生。
Governor Romney: You bet. Well, President, you're -- Mr. President, you're absolutely right, which is that, with regards to 97 percent of the businesses are not -- not taxed at the 35 percent tax rate, they're taxed at a lower rate. But those businesses that are in the last 3 percent of businesses happen to employ half -- half of all the people who work in small business. Those are the businesses that employ one-quarter of all the workers in America. And your plan is to take their tax rate from 35 percent to 40 percent. Governor Romney: 没问题。总统先——总统先生，你说得完全正确，关于97%的企业不按35%的税率征税，它们按更低的税率征税。但那最后3%的企业恰好雇佣了小企业全部员工的一半——一半。这些企业雇佣了美国全部劳动者的四分之一。而你的计划是要把他们的税率从35%提高到40%。
Now, and -- and I've talked to a guy who has a very small business. He's in the electronics business in -- in St. Louis. He has four employees. He said he and his son calculated how much they pay in taxes, federal income tax, federal payroll tax, state income tax, state sales tax, state property tax, gasoline tax. It added up to well over 50 percent of what they earned. And your plan is to take the tax rate on successful small businesses from 35 percent to 40 percent. The National Federation of Independent Businesses has said that will cost 700,000 jobs. 我跟一个人聊过，他经营着一家很小的小企业。他在圣路易斯做电子行业。他有四个员工。他说他和儿子计算了他们缴了多少税——联邦所得税、联邦工资税、州所得税、州销售税、州财产税、汽油税。加起来远远超过了他们收入的50%。而你的计划是要把成功小企业的税率从35%提高到40%。全国独立企业联合会表示，这将导致损失70万个就业岗位。
I don't want to cost jobs. My priority is jobs. And so what I do is I bring down the tax rates, lower deductions and exemptions, the same idea behind Bowles-Simpson, by the way, get the rates down, lower deductions and exemptions, to create more jobs, because there's nothing better for getting us to a balanced budget than having more people working, earning more money, paying more taxes. That's by far the most effective and efficient way to get this budget balanced. 我不想损失就业岗位。我的首要任务是就业。所以我要做的是降低税率、降低扣除额和免税额，这与鲍尔斯-辛普森计划背后的理念相同——降低税率、降低扣除额和免税额，以创造更多就业，因为没有比让更多人工作、赚更多钱、缴更多税更好的方式来实现预算平衡了。这是到目前为止实现预算平衡最有效、最高效的方式。
President Obama: Jim, I -- you may want to move onto another topic, but I -- I would just say this to the American people. If you believe that we can cut taxes by $5 trillion and add $2 trillion in additional spending that the military is not asking for, $7 trillion -- just to give you a sense, over 10 years, that's more than our entire defense budget -- and you think that by closing loopholes and deductions for the well-to-do, somehow you will not end up picking up the tab, then Governor Romney's plan may work for you. President Obama: 吉姆，我——你可能想转到另一个话题了，但我——我只想对美国人民说这些。如果你相信我们可以减税5万亿美元，同时增加2万亿军方并未要求的额外开支——7万亿美元——让大家有个概念，10年累计，这超过了我们的整个国防预算——并且你认为通过堵住富人的漏洞和扣除额，你最终不会为这一切买单，那么罗姆尼州长的计划可能适合你。
But I think math, common sense, and our history shows us that's not a recipe for job growth. Look, we've tried this. We've tried both approaches. The approach that Governor Romney's talking about is the same sales pitch that was made in 2001 and 2003, and we ended up with the slowest job growth in 50 years, we ended up moving from surplus to deficits, and it all culminated in the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. 但我认为数学、常识和历史都告诉我们，那不是促进就业增长的良方。听着，我们试过了。两种方式我们都试过了。罗姆尼州长所说的方式与2001年和2003年推销的是同一套说辞，结果我们得到了50年来最慢的就业增长，我们从盈余变为赤字，最终一切演变成了自大萧条以来最严重的金融危机。
Bill Clinton tried the approach that I'm talking about. We created 23 million new jobs. We went from deficit to surplus. And businesses did very well. 比尔·克林顿尝试过我所说的这种方式。我们创造了2300万个新就业岗位。我们从赤字变为盈余。
So, in some ways, we've got some data on which approach is more likely to create jobs and opportunity for Americans and I believe that the economy works best when middle-class families are getting tax breaks so that they've got some money in their pockets, and those of us who have done extraordinarily well because of this magnificent country that we live in, that we can afford to do a little bit more to make sure we're not blowing up the deficit. 企业也做得很好。所以在某种意义上，我们有数据表明哪种方式更有可能为美国人创造就业和机会。我相信当中产阶级家庭获得税收减免、口袋里有些钱时，经济运转得最好；而我们这些因为生活在这个伟大国家而取得了非凡成就的人，可以多付出一些，以确保不让赤字失控。
ROMNEY: Jim, the President began this segment, so I think I get the last word. ROMNEY: 吉姆，这个环节是总统开始的，所以我认为我应该有最后发言权。
LEHRER: Well, you're going to get the first word in the next segment. LEHRER: 嗯，你在下一个环节会先发言。
ROMNEY: All right. Well, but he gets the first word of that segment. I get the last word [inaudible]. I hope. Let me just make this comment. I think first of all, let me -- let me repeat -- let me repeat what I said. I'm not in favor of a $5 trillion tax cut. That's not my plan. My plan is not to put in place any tax cut that will add to the deficit. That's point one. So you may keep referring to it as a $5 trillion tax cut, but that's not my plan. ROMNEY: 好吧。但他在那个环节会先发言。我应该有最后发言权[听不清]。希望如此。让我说一下。首先，让我——让我重复——让我重复我说过的话。我不支持5万亿美元的减税。那不是我的计划。我的计划是不实施任何会增加赤字的减税。这是第一点。所以你可以继续称之为5万亿减税，但那不是我的计划。
Number two, let's look at history. My plan is not like anything that's been tried before. My plan is to bring down rates, but also bring down deductions and exemptions and credits at the same time so the revenue stays in, but that we bring down rates to get more people working. 第二，让我们看看历史。我的计划不像之前任何尝试过的方案。我的计划是降低税率，同时降低扣除额、免税额和抵免额，这样收入保持不变，但我们降低税率以让更多人就业。
My priority is putting people back to work in America. They're suffering in this country. And we talk about evidence. Look at the evidence of the last four years. It's absolutely extraordinary. We've got 23 million people out of work or stopped looking for work in this country. It's just -- it's -- we've got -- when the President took office, 32 million people on food stamps; 47 million on food stamps today; economic growth this year slower than last year, and last year slower than the year before. 我的首要任务是让美国人民重新就业。这个国家的人民正在受苦。我们谈证据。看看过去四年的证据。绝对是不同寻常的。我们有2300万人失业或已停止寻找工作。简直——当总统上任时，3200万人领取食品券；如今有4700万人领取食品券；今年经济增长比去年更慢，而去年又比前一年更慢。
Going forward with the status quo is not going to cut it for the American people who are struggling today. 继续维持现状，对于今天正在挣扎的美国人民来说是行不通的。
LEHRER: All right. Let's talk -- we're still on the economy. This is, theoretically now, a second segment still on the economy, and specifically on what to do about the federal deficit, the federal debt. And the question, you each have two minutes on this, and Governor Romney, you -- you go first because the President went first on segment one. And the question is this, what are the differences between the two of you as to how you would go about tackling the deficit problem in this country? LEHRER: 好的。让我们谈——我们还在经济议题上。现在理论上是第二个经济环节，具体关于如何应对联邦赤字和联邦债务问题。这个问题每人有两分钟时间，罗姆尼州长，你——你先来，因为总统在第一个环节先发言了。问题是这样的：在如何解决这个国家的赤字问题上，你们两位之间的分歧是什么？
Governor Romney: Good. I'm glad you raised that, and it's a -- it's a critical issue. I think it's not just an economic issue, I think it's a moral issue. I think it's, frankly, not moral for my generation to keep spending massively more than we take in, knowing those burdens are going to be passed on to the next generation and they're going to be paying the interest and the principal all their lives. And the amount of debt we're adding, at a trillion a year, is simply not moral. Governor Romney: 好。我很高兴你提出这个问题，这是一个——一个关键问题。我认为这不仅仅是经济问题，我认为这是道德问题。坦率地说，我认为我们这一代人持续大幅超支——明知这些负担将转嫁到下一代身上，他们一生都要为此支付利息和本金——这是不道德的。我们每年增加的债务达到万亿规模，这简直是不道德的。
So how do we deal with it? Well, mathematically, there are three ways that you can cut a deficit. One, of course, is to raise taxes. Number two is to cut spending. And number is to grow the economy, because if more people work in a growing economy, they're paying taxes, and you can get the job done that way. The President would -- President would prefer raising taxes. I understand. The problem with raising taxes is that it slows down the rate of growth. And you could never quite get the job done. I want to lower spending and encourage economic growth at the same time. 那么我们如何应对呢？从数学上讲，削减赤字有三种方式。第一，当然是增税。第二是削减开支。第三是经济增长，因为如果在增长的经济中有更多人工作，他们就在缴税，你就能通过这种方式实现目标。总统——总统倾向于增税。我理解。增税的问题在于它会拖慢增长速度。而且你永远无法真正完成任务。我希望同时削减开支和鼓励经济增长。
What things would I cut from spending? Well, first of all, I will eliminate all programs by this test, if they don't pass it: Is the program so critical it's worth borrowing money from China to pay for it? And if not, I'll get rid of it. Obamacare's on my list. I apologize, Mr. President. I use that term with all respect, by the way. 我会从开支中削减什么？首先，我将通过以下标准淘汰所有不能通过的政府项目：这个项目是否如此关键，以至于值得向中国借钱来支付？如果不是，我就砍掉它。奥巴马医改在我的清单上。抱歉，总统先生。顺便说一句，我使用这个称呼是带着敬意的。
President Obama: I like it. President Obama: 我不介意。
Governor Romney: Good. OK, good. So I'll get rid of that. I'm sorry, Jim, I'm going to stop the subsidy to PBS. I'm going to stop other things. I like PBS, I love Big Bird. Actually like you, too. But I'm not going to -- I'm not going to keep on spending money on things to borrow money from China to pay for. That's number one. Number two, I'll take programs that are currently good programs but I think could be run more efficiently at the state level and send them to the state. Governor Romney: 好。好的，好。所以我要砍掉它。对不起，吉姆，我要停止对PBS的补贴。我还要停止其他项目。我喜欢PBS，我爱大鸟。
Number three, I'll make government more efficient and to cut back the number of employees, combine some agencies and departments. My cutbacks will be done through attrition, by the way. 其实也挺喜欢你的。但我不会——我不会继续在那些要向中国借钱来支付的事情上花钱。这是第一。第二，我会把目前运转良好但我认为在州一级能更高效运行的项目交给各州。第三，我要让政府更高效，削减员工数量，合并一些机构和部门。顺便说一下，我的裁减将通过自然减员来实现。
This is the approach we have to take to get America to a balanced budget. The President said he'd cut the deficit in half. Unfortunately, he doubled it. Trillion-dollar deficits for the last four years. The President's put it in place as much public debt -- almost as much debt held by the public as al prior Presidents combined. 这是我们让美国实现预算平衡必须采取的方式。总统说过他要把赤字减半。不幸的是，他让赤字翻了一番。过去四年都是万亿规模的赤字。总统所产生的公众持有的债务——几乎与之前所有总统的债务总和一样多。
LEHRER: Mr. President, two minutes. LEHRER: 总统先生，两分钟。
President Obama: When I walked into the Oval Office, I had more than a trillion-dollar deficit greeting me. And we know where it came from: two wars that were paid for on a credit card; two tax cuts that were not paid for; and a whole bunch of programs that were not paid for; and then a massive economic crisis. President Obama: 当我走进椭圆形办公室时，迎接我的是超过万亿美元的赤字。我们知道它从何而来：两场用信用卡支付的战争；两次没有资金来源的减税；一大堆没有资金来源的项目；然后是一场大规模的经济危机。
And despite that, what we've said is, yes, we had to take some initial emergency measures to make sure we didn't slip into a Great Depression, but what we've also said is, let's make sure that we are cutting out those things that are not helping us grow. 尽管如此，我们说的是，是的，我们不得不采取一些初期的紧急措施以确保我们不会滑向大萧条，但我们还说，让我们确保砍掉那些无助于我们增长的开支。
So 77 government programs, everything from aircrafts that the Air Force had ordered but weren't working very well, 18 government -- 18 government programs for education that were well-intentioned, not weren't helping kids learn, we went after medical fraud in Medicare and Medicaid very aggressively, more aggressively than ever before, and have saved tens of billions of dollars, $50 billion of waste taken out of the system. 所以77个政府项目，从空军订购但效果不佳的飞机，到18个出发点良好但不能帮助孩子们学习的教育项目——我们非常积极地追查联邦医疗保险和医疗补助中的欺诈行为，比以往任何时候都更加积极，已经节省了数百亿美元，从系统中清除了500亿美元的浪费。
And I worked with Democrats and Republicans to cut a trillion dollars out of our discretionary domestic budget. That's the largest cut in the discretionary domestic budget since Dwight Eisenhower. 我还与民主党和共和党人合作，从我们的国内可自由支配预算中削减了一万亿美元。这是自德怀特·艾森豪威尔以来国内可自由支配预算的最大削减。
Now, we all know that we've got to do more. And so I've put forward a specific $4 trillion deficit reduction plan. It's on a website. You can look at all the numbers, what cuts we make and what revenue we raise. 当然，我们都很清楚我们还需要做更多。所以我提出了一个具体的4万亿美元赤字削减计划。计划在网站上。你可以查看所有数字，我们做了哪些削减、增加了哪些收入。
And the way we do it is $2.50 for every cut, we ask for $1 of additional revenue, paid for, as I indicated earlier, by asking those of us who have done very well in this country to contribute a little bit more to reduce the deficit. Governor Romney earlier mentioned the Bowles-Simpson commission. Well, that's how the commission -- bipartisan commission that talked about how we should move forward suggested we have to do it, in a balanced way with some revenue and some spending cuts. And this is a major difference that Governor Romney and I have. 我们的做法是每削减2.50美元开支，就要求1美元的额外收入，正如我之前所说，通过要求我们这些在这个国家取得了很好成就的人多贡献一些来减少赤字。罗姆尼州长之前提到了鲍尔斯-辛普森委员会。那个两党委员会在讨论我们应如何前进时建议，我们必须以平衡的方式来做——既有一些收入增加，也有一些开支削减。这是罗姆尼州长和我之间的一个重大分歧。
Let -- let me just finish their point, because you're looking for contrast. You know, when Governor Romney stood on a stage with other Republican candidates for the nomination and he was asked, would you take $10 of spending cuts for just $1 of revenue? And he said no. 让我把这个观点说完，因为你们在寻找对比。你们知道，当罗姆尼州长与其他共和党提名候选人同台时，他被问道：你愿意接受10美元的开支削减换取1美元的收入增加吗？他说不愿意。
Now, if you take such an unbalanced approach, then that means you are going to be gutting our investments in schools and education. It means that Governor Romney...talked about Medicaid and how we could send it back to the states, but effectively this means a 30 percent cut in the primary program we help for seniors who are in nursing homes, for kids who are with disabilities. 如果你采取这样一种不平衡的方案，那就意味着你将大幅削减我们对学校和教育的投入。这意味着罗姆尼州长……谈到了医疗补助计划以及如何将其退回各州，但实际上这意味着我们用来帮助住在养老院的老人和残障儿童的主要项目将被削减30%。
LEHRER: Mr. President, I'm sorry. LEHRER: 总统先生，抱歉。
President Obama: And -- and that is not a right strategy for us to move forward. President Obama: 而——这不是我们前进的正确策略。
LEHRER: Way over the two minutes. LEHRER: 远远超过两分钟了。
President Obama: Sorry. President Obama: 抱歉。
LEHRER: Governor, what about Simpson-Bowles? Do you support Simpson-Bowles? LEHRER: 州长，辛普森-鲍尔斯计划呢？你支持辛普森-鲍尔斯计划吗？
Governor Romney: Simpson-Bowles, the President should have grabbed that. Governor Romney: 辛普森-鲍尔斯计划，总统本应该抓住它的。
LEHRER: No, I mean, do you support Simpson-Bowles? LEHRER: 不，我的意思是，你支持辛普森-鲍尔斯计划吗？
Governor Romney: I have my own plan. It's not the same as Simpson- Bowles. But in my view, the President should have grabbed it. If you wanted to make some adjustments to it, take it, go to Congress, fight for it. Governor Romney: 我有自己的计划。它和辛普森-鲍尔斯计划不一样。但在我看来，总统本应该抓住它的。如果你想对它做一些调整，那就拿过去，拿到国会去，为之争取。
President Obama: That's what we've done, made some adjustments to it, and we're putting it forward before Congress right now, a $4 trillion plan... President Obama: 这正是我们所做的，对它做了一些调整，而且我们现在正把它提交给国会，一个4万亿美元的方案……
Governor Romney: But you've been -- but you've been President four years...You've been President four years. You said you'd cut the deficit in half. It's now four years later. We still have trillion-dollar deficits. The CBO says we'll have a trillion-dollar deficit each of the next four years. If you're re-elected, we'll get to a trillion-dollar debt. Governor Romney: 但你已经——但你已经当总统四年了……你已经当总统四年了。你说你会把赤字减半。现在四年过去了。我们仍然有万亿美元的赤字。国会预算办公室说我们在未来四年每年都会有万亿美元的赤字。如果你连任，我们将面临万亿美元的债务。
I mean, you have said before you'd cut the deficit in half. And this -- I love this idea of $4 trillion in cuts. You found $4 trillion of ways to reduce or to get closer to a balanced budget, except we still show trillion-dollar deficits every year. That doesn't get the job done. 我的意思是，你之前说过要把赤字减半。而且这个——我喜欢这个4万亿美元削减的想法。你找到了4万亿美元的削减方式来减少赤字或接近预算平衡，但问题是，我们每年仍然有万亿美元的赤字。这并没有解决问题。
Let me come back and say, why is it that I don't want to raise taxes? Why don't I want to raise taxes on people? And actually, you said it back in 2010. You said, "Look, I'm going to extend the tax policies that we have now; I'm not going to raise taxes on anyone, because when the economy is growing slow like this, when we're in recession, you shouldn't raise taxes on anyone." 让我回来说说，为什么我不想加税？为什么我不想对人民加税？实际上，你在2010年也说过。你说，「看，我打算延续我们现在的税收政策；我不会对任何人加税，因为当经济像这样缓慢增长时，当我们处于衰退中时，你不应该对任何人加税。」
Well, the economy is still growing slow. As a matter of fact, it's growing much more slowly now than when you made that statement. And so if you believe the same thing, you just don't want to raise taxes on people. And the reality is it's not just wealthy people -- you mentioned Donald Trump. It's not just Donald Trump you're taxing. It's all those businesses that employ one-quarter of the workers in America; these small businesses that are taxed as individuals. 嗯，经济仍在缓慢增长。事实上，现在的增长速度比你发表那番言论时还要慢得多。所以如果你还是同样的看法，你就不应该对人民加税。现实情况是，这不仅仅是富人——你提到了唐纳德·特朗普。你要征税的不仅仅是唐纳德·特朗普。而是那些雇用了美国四分之一工人的企业；这些按个人所得税率征税的小企业。
You raise taxes and you kill jobs. That's why the National Federation of Independent Businesses said your plan will kill 700,000 jobs. I don't want to kill jobs in this environment. 你一加税就会扼杀就业。这就是为什么全国独立企业联合会说你的计划将扼杀70万个就业岗位。我不想在这样的环境下扼杀就业。
I'll make one more point. 我再说一点。
LEHRER: [inaudible] answer the taxes thing for a moment. LEHRER: [听不清] 先回答一下税收的问题。
Governor Romney: OK. Governor Romney: 好。
LEHRER: Mr. President? LEHRER: 总统先生？
President Obama: Well, we've had this discussion before. President Obama: 嗯，我们之前已经讨论过这个问题了。
LEHRER: About the idea that in order to reduce the deficit, there has to be revenue in addition to cuts. LEHRER: 关于为了减少赤字，除了削减开支之外还需要增加收入这个想法。
President Obama: There has to be revenue in addition to cuts. Now, Governor Romney has ruled out revenue. He's ruled out revenue. President Obama: 除了削减开支之外，确实需要增加收入。而现在，罗姆尼州长已经排除了增加收入的可能。他排除了增加收入。
[Crosstalk] [众人同时说话]
Governor Romney: Absolutely. Governor Romney: 绝对是。
[Crosstalk] [众人同时说话]
Governor Romney: Look, the revenue I get is by more people working, getting higher pay, paying more taxes. That's how we get growth and how we balance the budget. But the idea of taxing people more, putting more people out of work, you'll never get there. You'll never balance the budget by raising taxes. Spain -- Spain spends 42 percent of their total economy on government. We're now spending 42 percent of our economy on government. I don't want to go down the path to Spain. I want to go down the path of growth that puts Americans to work with more money coming in because they're working. Governor Romney: 听着，我获得的收入来自更多的人工作、获得更高的薪酬、缴纳更多的税款。这才是我们实现增长和平衡预算的方式。但是向人们多征税、让更多人失业的想法，你永远达不到目标。你永远无法通过加税来平衡预算。西班牙——西班牙将总经济的42%用于政府开支。我们现在也将经济的42%用于政府开支。我不想走西班牙的老路。我想走增长的道路，让美国人就业，因为他们工作而带来更多的收入。
LEHRER: But -- but Mr. President, you're saying in order to -- to get the job done, it's got to be balanced. You've got to have... LEHRER: 但是——但是总统先生，你是说为了——为了完成任务，必须保持平衡。你必须……
[Crosstalk] [众人同时说话]
President Obama: If -- if we're serious, we've got to take a balanced, responsible approach. And by the way, this is not just when it comes to individual taxes. Let's talk about corporate taxes. President Obama: 如果——如果我们是认真的，我们必须采取平衡、负责任的方式。顺便说一下，这不仅仅是个人税收的问题。让我们谈谈企业税。
Now, I've identified areas where we can, right away, make a change that I believe would actually help the economy. 现在，我已经确定了一些我们可以立即做出改变的领域，我相信这些改变实际上会帮助经济。
The oil industry gets $4 billion a year in corporate welfare. Basically, they get deductions that those small businesses that Governor Romney refers to, they don't get. 石油行业每年获得40亿美元的企业福利。基本上，他们获得的那些抵扣，是罗姆尼州长所提到的那些小企业得不到的。
Now, does anybody think that ExxonMobil needs some extra money, when they're making money every time you go to the pump? Why wouldn't we want to eliminate that? Why wouldn't we eliminate tax breaks for corporate jets? My attitude is, if you got a corporate jet, you can probably afford to pay full freight, not get a special break for it. 那么，有没有人认为埃克森美孚还需要一些额外的钱，在你每次去加油的时候他们都在赚钱？我们为什么不想取消这些呢？我们为什么不取消企业专机的税收优惠呢？我的态度是，如果你有企业专机，你大概付得起全价，不需要获得特别优惠。
When it comes to corporate taxes, Governor Romney has said he wants to, in a revenue neutral way, close loopholes, deductions -- he hasn't identified which ones they are -- but that thereby bring down the corporate rate. 在企业税方面，罗姆尼州长说过他想以收入中性的方式，关闭漏洞和抵扣——他没有指出是哪些——但以此来降低企业税率。
Well, I want to do the same thing, but I've actually identified how we can do that. And part of the way to do it is to not give tax breaks to companies that are shipping jobs overseas. 嗯，我想做同样的事情，但我实际上已经明确了我们如何做到这一点。其中一部分方法是不给那些将工作岗位转移到海外的公司税收优惠。
Right now, you can actually take a deduction for moving a plant overseas. I think most Americans would say that doesn't make sense. And all that raises revenue. 现在，你实际上可以为将工厂迁往海外而获得抵扣。我想大多数美国人都会说这毫无道理。而这些都能增加收入。
And so if we take a balanced approach, what that then allows us to do is also to help young people, the way we already have during my administration, make sure that they can afford to go to college. 因此，如果我们采取平衡的方式，这还能让我们帮助年轻人，就像我们在我的任期内已经在做的那样，确保他们能够上得起大学。
It means that the teacher that I met in Las Vegas, a wonderful young lady, who describes to me -- she's got 42 kids in her class. The first two weeks she's got them, some of them sitting on the floor until finally they get reassigned. They're using text books that are 10 years old. 这意味着我在拉斯维加斯遇到的那位老师，一位优秀的年轻女士，她向我描述——她班上有42个孩子。在她接手的前两周，有些孩子坐在地上，直到最终被重新分配。他们使用的教科书已经10年了。
That is not a recipe for growth. That's not how America was built. And so budgets reflect choices. 这不是促进增长的良方。这不是美国建设的道路。因此，预算反映的是选择。
Ultimately, we're going to have to make some decisions. And if we're asking for no revenue, then that means that we've got to get rid of a whole bunch of stuff. 最终，我们将不得不做出一些决定。如果我们不要求任何收入，那就意味着我们必须削减一大堆东西。
And the magnitude of the tax cuts that you're talking about, Governor, would end up resulting in severe hardship for people, but more importantly, would not help us grow. 而且州长，你所谈论的减税规模，最终将给人民带来严重的困难，但更重要的是，这不会帮助我们实现增长。
As I indicated before, when you talk about shifting Medicaid to states, we're talking about potentially a 30 -- a 30 percent cut in Medicaid over time. 正如我之前指出的，当你谈论将医疗补助计划移交给各州时，我们谈论的是随着时间的推移，医疗补助计划可能会被削减30%——30%。
Now, you know, that may not seem like a big deal when it just is, you know, numbers on a sheet of paper, but if we're talking about a family who's got an autistic kid and is depending on that Medicaid, that's a big problem. 现在，你知道，当这只是纸上的数字时，可能看起来没什么大不了，但如果我们谈论的是一个有自闭症孩子并依赖医疗补助计划的家庭，那就是一个大问题。
And governors are creative. There's no doubt about it. But they're not creative enough to make up for 30 percent of revenue on something like Medicaid. What ends up happening is some people end up not getting help. 各州州长是有创造力的。这是毫无疑问的。但他们没有足够的能力来弥补医疗补助计划等项目中30%的收入损失。最终结果是有些人得不到帮助。
Governor Romney: Jim, let's -- we've gone on a lot of topics there, and so it's going to take a minute to go from Medicaid to schools... Governor Romney: 吉姆，让我们——我们谈了很多话题，所以需要一点时间从医疗补助计划转到学校……
LEHRER: Come back to... LEHRER: 回到……
[Crosstalk] [众人同时说话]
Governor Romney: ... to oil, to tax breaks, then companies going overseas. So let's go through them one by one. First of all, the Department of Energy has said the tax break for oil companies is $2.8 billion a year. And it's actually an accounting treatment, as you know, that's been in place for a hundred years. Now... Governor Romney: ……转到石油、税收优惠，然后是公司向海外转移的问题。让我们逐一来看。首先，能源部说石油公司的税收优惠是每年28亿美元。而且正如你所知，这实际上是一种已经实行了一百年的会计处理方式。现在……
President Obama: It's time to end it. President Obama: 是时候结束它了。
Governor Romney: And in one year, you provided $90 billion in breaks to the green energy world. Now, I like green energy as well, but that's about 50 years' worth of what oil and gas receives. And you say Exxon and Mobil. Actually, this $2.8 billion goes largely to small companies, to drilling operators and so forth. But, you know, if we get that tax rate from 35 percent down to 25 percent, why that $2.8 billion is on the table. Of course it's on the table. That's probably not going to survive you get that rate down to 25 percent. Governor Romney: 而在一年内，你向绿色能源领域提供了900亿美元的优惠。现在，我也喜欢绿色能源，但这大约相当于石油和天然气行业50年所得的优惠。你说埃克森和美孚。实际上，这28亿美元主要流向了小公司、钻井运营商等。但是，你知道，如果我们把税率从35%降到25%，那这28亿美元就可以放上谈判桌。
But don't forget, you put $90 billion, like 50 years' worth of breaks, into -- into solar and wind, to Solyndra and Fisker and Tester and Ener1. I mean, I had a friend who said you don't just pick the winners and losers, you pick the losers, all right? So this -- this is not -- this is not the kind of policy you want to have if you want to get America energy secure. 当然可以放上谈判桌。当你把税率降到25%时，它可能就保不住了。但不要忘了，你把900亿美元，相当于50年的优惠，投入了——投入了太阳能和风能，投入了Solyndra、Fisker、Tester和Ener1。我的意思是，我有个朋友说，你不仅仅是在挑选赢家和输家，你挑的都是输家，对吧？所以这——这不是——如果你想确保美国的能源安全，这不是你想要的那种政策。
The second topic, which is you said you get a deduction for taking a plant overseas. Look, I've been in business for 25 years. I have no idea what you're talking about. I maybe need to get a new accountant. 第二个话题，你说把工厂迁到海外可以获得抵扣。听着，我在商界已经25年了。我完全不知道你在说什么。我可能需要换一个新会计。
LEHRER: Let's... LEHRER: 让我们……
Governor Romney: But -- but the idea that you get a break for shipping jobs overseas is simply not the case. Governor Romney: 但是——但是把工作岗位转移到海外就能获得优惠的想法，根本不是事实。
[Crosstalk] [众人同时说话]
Governor Romney: What we do have right now is a setting where I'd like to bring money from overseas back to this country. Governor Romney: 我们现在确实面临一种情况，我想把海外的资金带回这个国家。
And, finally, Medicaid to states? I'm not quite sure where that came in, except this, which is, I would like to take the Medicaid dollars that go to states and say to a state, you're going to get what you got last year, plus inflation, plus 1 percent, and then you're going to manage your care for your poor in the way you think best. 最后，医疗补助计划交给各州？我不太确定这个话题是怎么引出来的，但除此之外，我想把拨给各州的医疗补助资金拿过来，对每个州说，你将获得你去年获得的金额，加上通胀率，再加上1%，然后你用你认为最好的方式来管理你们州穷人的医疗保障。
And I remember, as a governor, when this idea was floated by Tommy Thompson, the governors -- Republican and Democrats -- said, please let us do that. We can care for our own poor in so much better and more effective a way than having the federal government tell us how to care for our poor. 我记得，当我做州长的时候，当汤米·汤普森提出这个想法时，各州州长——无论共和党人还是民主党人——都说，请让我们这样做。我们能以比联邦政府告诉我们如何照顾穷人好得多、有效得多的方式来照顾我们自己的穷人。
So -- so let's state -- one of the magnificent things about this country is the whole idea that states are the laboratories of democracy. Don't have the federal government tell everybody what kind of training programs they have to have and what kind of Medicaid they have to have. Let states do this. 所以——所以让我们说——这个国家了不起的地方之一就是各州是民主制度的实验室这一理念。不要让联邦政府告诉每个人他们必须有什么样的培训项目和什么样的医疗补助计划。让各州来做这些。
And, by the way, if a state gets in trouble, well, we can step in and see if we can find a way to help them. 顺便说一下，如果某个州遇到困难，嗯，我们可以介入，看看能否找到帮助他们的方法。
LEHRER: Let's go. LEHRER: 继续。
Governor Romney: But -- but the right -- the right approach is one which relies on the brilliance of our people and states, not the federal government. Governor Romney: 但是——但是正确的——正确的方法是依靠我们人民和各州的智慧，而不是联邦政府。
LEHRER: [inaudible] and we're going on -- still on the economy, on another -- but another part of it... LEHRER: [听不清] 我们继续——仍然在经济话题上，转到另一个——但也是经济的另一个部分……
President Obama: OK. President Obama: 好。
LEHRER: All right? All right. This is segment three, the economy. Entitlements. First -- first answer goes to you, two minutes, Mr. President. Do you see a major difference between the two of you on Social Security? LEHRER: 好吗？好的。这是第三部分，经济话题。福利项目。第一个——第一个回答的机会给你，两分钟，总统先生。你认为你们两人在社会保障问题上存在重大分歧吗？
President Obama: You know, I suspect that, on Social Security, we've got a somewhat similar position. Social Security is structurally sound. It's going to have to be tweaked the way it was by Ronald Reagan and Speaker -- Democratic Speaker Tip O'Neill. But it is -- the basic structure is sound. President Obama: 你知道，我猜想，在社会保障方面，我们的立场有些相似。社会保障在结构上是稳健的。它需要进行一些微调，就像罗纳德·里根和民主党议长蒂普·奥尼尔当时所做的那样。但它的——基本结构是稳健的。
But -- but I want to talk about the values behind Social Security and Medicare, and then talk about Medicare, because that's the big driver of our deficits right now. 但是——但是我想谈谈社会保障和医疗保险背后的价值观，然后再谈谈医疗保险，因为那才是我们现在赤字的主要推动因素。
You know, my grandmother -- some of you know -- helped to raise me. My grandparents did. My grandfather died a while back. My grandmother died three days before I was elected President. And she was fiercely independent. She worked her way up, only had a high school education, started as a secretary, ended up being the vice President of a local bank. And she ended up living alone by choice. 你们知道，我的祖母——你们中有些人知道——帮助抚养了我。是我的祖父母抚养我的。我的祖父前些年去世了。我的祖母在我当选总统前三天去世了。她是一个非常独立的人。她靠自己的努力一步步往上走，只有高中学历，从秘书做起，最后成为了一家地方银行的副总裁。她最终选择独居。
And the reason she could be independent was because of Social Security and Medicare. She had worked all her life, put in this money, and understood that there was a basic guarantee, a floor under which she could not go. 她之所以能够独立生活，是因为有社会保障和医疗保险。她工作了一辈子，投入了这些钱，她明白有一个基本保障，有一个她不会跌破的底线。
And that's the perspective I bring when I think about what's called entitlements. You know, the name itself implies some sense of dependency on the part of these folks. These are folks who've worked hard, like my grandmother, and there are millions of people out there who are counting on this. 这就是我在思考所谓的福利项目时所持的视角。你知道，这个名字本身就暗示了这些人有某种依赖性。这些人都是辛勤工作的人，就像我的祖母一样，还有数以百万计的人正在指望这些。
So my approach is to say, how do we strengthen the system over the long term? And in Medicare, what we did was we said, we are going to have to bring down the costs if we're going to deal with our long-term deficits, but to do that, let's look where some of the money's going. 所以我的方法是说，我们如何从长远上加强这个体系？在医疗保险方面，我们做的是，我们说，如果我们要应对长期赤字，就必须降低成本，但要做到这一点，让我们看看钱都花到哪里去了。
$716 billion we were able to save from the Medicare program by no longer overpaying insurance companies by making sure that we weren't overpaying providers. And using that money, we were actually able to lower prescription drug costs for seniors by an average of $600, and we were also able to make a -- make a significant dent in providing them the kind of preventive care that will ultimately save money through the -- throughout the system. 我们从医疗保险项目中节省了7160亿美元，方法是不再向保险公司多付钱，确保我们不会向医疗服务提供者多付钱。利用这些钱，我们实际上将老年人的处方药费用平均降低了600美元，我们还能够在为他们提供预防性护理方面取得显著进展，这些预防性护理最终将在整个系统中节省资金。
So the way for us to deal with Medicare in particular is to lower health care costs. When it comes to Social Security, as I said, you don't need a major structural change in order to make sure that Social Security is there for the future. 所以我们应对医疗保险问题的方式，特别是要降低医疗成本。至于社会保障，正如我所说，你不需要进行重大的结构性改革来确保社会保障在未来仍然存在。
LEHRER: We'll follow up on this. First, Governor Romney, you have two minutes on Social Security and entitlements. LEHRER: 我们会继续跟进这个话题。首先，罗姆尼州长，你有两分钟时间谈社会保障和福利项目。
Governor Romney: Well, Jim, our seniors depend on these programs, and I know anytime we talk about entitlements, people become concerned that something's going to happen that's going to change their life for the worse. Governor Romney: 嗯，吉姆，我们的老年人依赖这些项目，我知道每次我们谈论福利项目时，人们都会担心会发生什么让他们的生活变得更糟的事情。
And the answer is neither the President nor I are proposing any changes for any current retirees or near retirees, either to Social Security or Medicare. So if you're 60 or around 60 or older, you don't need to listen any further. 答案是，无论是我还是总统，都没有提议对任何当前的退休人员或即将退休的人员在社会保障或医疗保险方面做任何改变。所以如果你已经60岁或大约60岁或更大，你不需要再听下去了。
But for younger people, we need to talk about what changes are going to be occurring. Oh, I just thought about one. And that is, in fact, I was wrong when I said the President isn't proposing any changes for current retirees. In fact he is on Medicare. On Social Security he's not. 但对于年轻人，我们需要讨论将要发生什么变化。哦，我刚想到一个。事实上，我说总统没有对当前退休人员提出任何改变时，我说错了。实际上他在医疗保险方面确实有。在社会保障方面他没有。
But on Medicare, for current retirees, he's cutting $716 billion from the program. Now, he says by not overpaying hospitals and providers. Actually just going to them and saying, "We're going to reduce the rates you get paid across the board, everybody's going to get a lower rate." That's not just going after places where there's abuse. That's saying we're cutting the rates. Some 15 percent of hospitals and nursing homes say they won't take anymore Medicare patients under that scenario. 但在医疗保险方面，对于当前的退休人员，他从该项目中削减了7160亿美元。现在，他说这是通过不多付钱给医院和医疗服务提供者。实际上就是去找他们说，「我们将全面降低你们的报酬率，每个人都将获得更低的报酬率。」这不仅仅是针对存在滥用行为的地方。这是说要削减报酬率。约15%的医院和养老院表示，在这种情况下他们将不再接收医疗保险患者。
We also have 50 percent of doctors who say they won't take more Medicare patients. 我们还有50%的医生表示他们不会接收更多的医疗保险患者。
This -- we have 4 million people on Medicare Advantage that will lose Medicare Advantage because of those $716 billion in cuts. I can't understand how you can cut Medicare $716 billion for current recipients of Medicare. 这——我们有400万人参加了联邦医疗保险优势计划，因为那7160亿美元的削减，他们将失去联邦医疗保险优势计划。我无法理解你怎么能为当前的医疗保险受益人削减7160亿美元的医疗保险。
Now, you point out, well, we're putting some back. We're going to give a better prescription program. That's $1 -- that's $1 for every $15 you've cut. They're smart enough to know that's not a good trade. I want to take that $716 billion you've cut and put it back into Medicare. By the way, we can include a prescription program if we need to improve it. But the idea of cutting $716 billion from Medicare to be able to balance the additional cost of Obamacare is, in my opinion, a mistake. 现在，你指出，嗯，我们在把一些放回去。我们将提供更好的处方药计划。那是1美元——你每削减15美元就放回1美元。他们够聪明，知道这不是一笔划算的交易。
And with regards to young people coming along, I've got proposals to make sure Medicare and Social Security are there for them without any question. 我想把你削减的7160亿美元拿回来放回医疗保险中。顺便说一下，如果需要改进，我们可以纳入一个处方药计划。但是从医疗保险中削减7160亿美元来平衡奥巴马医改的额外成本，在我看来是一个错误。至于即将退休的年轻人，我有提案确保医疗保险和社会保障毫无疑问地为他们保留。
LEHRER: Mr. President? LEHRER: 总统先生？
President Obama: First of all, I think it's important for Governor Romney to present this plan that he says will only affect folks in the future. And the essence of the plan is that you would turn Medicare into a voucher program. It's called premium support, but it's understood to be a voucher program. His running mate... President Obama: 首先，我认为罗姆尼州长有必要介绍一下他所说的只会影响未来人们的那个计划。该计划的本质是将医疗保险变成一个代金券计划。它被称为保费支持，但人们都理解它就是一个代金券计划。他的竞选搭档……
LEHRER: And you don't support that? LEHRER: 而你不支持这个？
President Obama: I don't. And let me explain why. President Obama: 我不支持。让我解释一下原因。
Governor Romney: Again, that's for future... Governor Romney: 再说一次，那是针对未来的……
President Obama: I understand. President Obama: 我明白。
Governor Romney: ... people, right, not for current retirees. Governor Romney: ……未来的人，对吧，不是针对当前退休人员的。
President Obama: For -- so if you're -- if you're 54 or 55, you might want to listen 'cause this -- this will affect you. President Obama: 所以——所以如果你——如果你是54或55岁，你可能想听一下，因为这——这会影响到你。
The idea, which was originally presented by Congressman Ryan, your running mate, is that we would give a voucher to seniors and they could go out in the private marketplace and buy their own health insurance. 这个想法最初是由你的竞选搭档、国会议员瑞安提出的，即我们给老年人一张代金券，他们可以到私人市场上去购买自己的医疗保险。
The problem is that because the voucher wouldn't necessarily keep up with health care inflation, it was estimated that this would cost the average senior about $6,000 a year. 问题在于，因为代金券不一定能跟上医疗通胀的速度，据估计这将使普通老年人每年多花费约6000美元。
Now, in fairness, what Governor Romney has now said is he'll maintain traditional Medicare alongside it. But there's still a problem, because what happens is, those insurance companies are pretty clever at figuring out who are the younger and healthier seniors. They recruit them, leaving the older, sicker seniors in Medicare. And every health care economist that looks at it says, over time, what'll happen is the traditional Medicare system will collapse. 现在，公平地说，罗姆尼州长现在说的是他将保留传统医疗保险与之并行。但仍然存在一个问题，因为实际情况是，那些保险公司非常善于识别哪些是更年轻、更健康的老年人。他们招募这些人，把更年长、更体弱的老年人留在医疗保险中。每一位研究这个问题的医疗经济学家都说，随着时间的推移，将会发生的是传统医疗保险系统将崩溃。
And then what you've got is folks like my grandmother at the mercy of the private insurance system precisely at the time when they are most in need of decent health care. 然后你得到的结果是，像我祖母这样的人在最需要像样的医疗保健的时候，却任由私人保险体系摆布。
So, I don't think vouchers are the right way to go. And this is not my own -- only my opinion. AARP thinks that the -- the savings that we obtained from Medicare bolster the system, lengthen the Medicare trust fund by eight years. Benefits were not affected at all. And ironically, if you repeal Obamacare, and I have become fond of this term, "Obamacare," if you repeal it, what happens is those seniors right away are going to be paying $600 more in prescription care. They're now going to have to be paying copays for basic checkups that can keep them healthier. 所以，我不认为代金券是正确的方向。而且这不仅仅是我个人的——不仅仅是我个人的看法。美国退休人员协会认为我们从医疗保险中获得的储蓄加强了该体系，使医疗保险信托基金延长了八年。福利完全没有受到影响。而且讽刺的是，如果你废除奥巴马医改——我已经喜欢上「奥巴马医改」这个词了——如果你废除它，结果是那些老年人马上就要在处方药上多付600美元。他们现在将不得不为可以让他们保持健康的基本体检支付共付费用。
And the primary beneficiary of that repeal are insurance companies that are estimated to gain billions of dollars back when they aren't making seniors any healthier. And I don't think that's the right approach when it comes to making sure that Medicare is stronger over the long term. 而废除法案的主要受益者是保险公司，据估计他们将收回数十亿美元，而他们并没有让老年人变得更健康。我不认为这是确保医疗保险长期更加强健的正确方法。
LEHRER: We'll talk about -- specifically about health care in a moment. But what -- do you support the voucher system, Governor? LEHRER: 我们稍后会——具体谈谈医疗保健。但是——州长，你支持代金券制度吗？
Governor Romney: What I support is no change for current retirees and near-retirees to Medicare. And the President supports taking $716 billion out of that program. Governor Romney: 我支持的是不对当前退休人员和即将退休人员的医疗保险做任何改变。而总统支持从该项目中拿走7160亿美元。
LEHRER: And what about the vouchers? LEHRER: 那代金券呢？
[Crosstalk] [众人同时说话]
Governor Romney: So that's -- that's number one. Governor Romney: 所以那是——那是第一点。
Number two is for people coming along that are young, what I do to make sure that we can keep Medicare in place for them is to allow them either to choose the current Medicare program or a private plan. Their choice. They get to choose -- and they'll have at least two plans that will be entirely at no cost to them. So they don't have to pay additional money, no additional $6,000. That's not going to happen. They'll have at least two plans. 第二，对于那些即将加入的年轻人，我为确保能为他们保留联邦医疗保险所做的是，允许他们选择当前的联邦医疗保险计划或私人计划。由他们选择。他们可以自行选择——而且他们至少有两个完全不需要他们额外付费的计划。所以他们不需要额外掏钱，不会有额外的6000美元支出。
And by the way, if the government can be as efficient as the private sector and offer premiums that are as low as the private sector, people will be happy to get traditional Medicare or they'll be able to get a private plan. 这种情况不会发生。他们至少有两个计划可供选择。顺便说一句，如果政府能像私营部门一样高效，提供与私营部门一样低的保费，人们会很乐意选择传统的联邦医疗保险，或者他们可以选择私人计划。
I know my own view is I'd rather have a private plan. I'd just assume not have the government telling me what kind of health care I get. I'd rather be able to have an insurance company. If I don't like them, I can get rid of them and find a different insurance company. But people make their own choice. 我自己的看法是，我宁愿选择私人计划。我宁可不让政府来告诉我能获得什么样的医疗服务。我宁愿能够选择一家保险公司。如果我不满意，我可以换掉他们，找另一家保险公司。但人们可以自己做选择。
The other thing we have to do to save Medicare? We have to have the benefits high for those that are low income, but for higher income people, we're going to have to lower some of the benefits. We have to make sure this program is there for the long term. That's the plan that I've put forward. 拯救联邦医疗保险，我们还需要做些什么？我们必须为低收入人群维持较高的福利水平，但对于高收入人群，我们将不得不降低一些福利。我们必须确保这个项目能长期存续。这就是我提出的方案。
And, by the way the idea came not even from Paul Ryan or -- or Senator Wyden, who's the co-author of the bill with -- with Paul Ryan in the Senate, but also it came from Bill -- Bill Clinton's chief of staff. This is an idea that's been around a long time, which is saying, hey, let's see if we can't get competition into the Medicare world so that people can get the choice of different plans at lower cost, better quality. I believe in competition. 顺便说一下，这个想法甚至不是来自保罗·瑞安——或者是参议员怀登，他是参议院中与保罗·瑞安共同起草该法案的人——它也来自比尔·克林顿的幕僚长。这是一个存在了很久的想法，就是说，嘿，让我们看看能不能在联邦医疗保险中引入竞争机制，这样人们就能以更低的成本、更好的质量选择不同的计划。我相信竞争的力量。
President Obama: Jim, if I -- if I can just respond very quickly, first of all, every study has shown that Medicare has lower administrative costs than private insurance does, which is why seniors are generally pretty happy with it. President Obama: 吉姆，如果我——如果我能很快回应一下，首先，每一项研究都表明联邦医疗保险的管理成本比私人保险更低，这也是为什么老年人通常对它相当满意。
And private insurers have to make a profit. Nothing wrong with that. That's what they do. And so you've got higher administrative costs, plus profit on top of that. And if you are going to save any money through what Governor Romney's proposing, what has to happen is, is that the money has to come from somewhere. 而私人保险公司必须盈利。这没什么不对。这就是他们的业务。所以你面临的是更高的管理成本，再加上利润。如果你想通过罗姆尼州长提出的方案节省任何资金，那么钱必须从某个地方来。
And when you move to a voucher system, you are putting seniors at the mercy of those insurance companies. And over time, if traditional Medicare has decayed or fallen apart, then they're stuck. And this is the reason why AARP has said that your plan would weaken Medicare substantially. And that's why they were supportive of the approach that we took. 而当你转向代金券制度时，你就是在把老年人交给那些保险公司摆布。随着时间推移，如果传统的联邦医疗保险衰退或瓦解了，那他们就陷入困境了。这就是为什么美国退休人员协会说你的计划会大幅削弱联邦医疗保险。这也是他们支持我们所采取的做法的原因。
One last point I want to make. We do have to lower the cost of health care, not just in Medicare and Medicaid... 我想说的最后一点是，我们确实必须降低医疗保健的成本，不仅仅是在联邦医疗保险和医疗补助中……
LEHRER: Talk about that in a minute. LEHRER: 一会儿再谈这个。
President Obama: ... but -- but -- but overall. President Obama: ……而是——而是——而是整体上。
LEHRER: OK. LEHRER: 好的。
President Obama: And so... President Obama: 所以说……
Governor Romney: That's -- that's a big topic. Can we -- can we stay on Medicare? Governor Romney: 那是——那是个大话题。我们能——我们能继续谈联邦医疗保险吗？
President Obama: Is that a -- is that a separate topic? President Obama: 那是——那是一个单独的话题吗？
[Crosstalk] [多人同时说话]
LEHRER: Yeah, we're going to -- yeah, I want to get to it. LEHRER: 是的，我们将会——是的，我想谈到那个话题。
President Obama: I'm sorry. President Obama: 抱歉。
LEHRER: But all I want to do is go very quickly... LEHRER: 但我想做的只是很快地过一下……
Governor Romney: Let's get back to Medicare. Governor Romney: 让我们回到联邦医疗保险的话题。
LEHRER: ... before we leave the economy... LEHRER: ……在离开经济话题之前……
Governor Romney: Let's get back to Medicare. Governor Romney: 让我们回到联邦医疗保险。
[Crosstalk] [多人同时说话]
Governor Romney: The President said that the government can provide the service at lower cost and without a profit. Governor Romney: 总统说政府能以更低的成本、不需要利润来提供服务。
LEHRER: All right. LEHRER: 好的。
Governor Romney: If that's the case, then it will always be the best product that people can purchase. Governor Romney: 如果真是这样，那它将永远是人们能买到的最好的产品。
LEHRER: Wait a minute, Governor. LEHRER: 等一下，州长。
Governor Romney: But my experience -- my experience the private sector typically is able to provide a better product at a lower cost. Governor Romney: 但根据我的经验——我的经验是，私营部门通常能以更低的成本提供更好的产品。
LEHRER: All right. Can we -- can the two of you agree that the voters have a choice -- a clear choice between the two... LEHRER: 好了。我们能不能——你们两位能不能同意，选民有一个选择——在你们两位之间有一个明确的选择……
Governor Romney: Absolutely. Governor Romney: 绝对可以。
LEHRER: ... of you on Medicare? LEHRER: ……关于联邦医疗保险？
Governor Romney: Absolutely. Governor Romney: 绝对可以。
President Obama: Absolutely. President Obama: 绝对可以。
LEHRER: All right. So to finish quickly, briefly, on the economy, what is your view about the level of federal regulation of the economy right now? Is there too much? And in your case, Mr. President, is there -- should there be more? Beginning with you. This is not a new two-minute segment to start. And we'll go for a few minutes, and then we're going to go to health care, OK? LEHRER: 好的。那么在结束经济话题之前，快速简要地问一下，你们对当前联邦政府对经济的监管程度有什么看法？是否太多了？而总统先生，在您看来，是否——是否应该加强监管？从您开始。这不是一个新的两分钟环节的开始。我们会进行几分钟，然后我们就要转到医疗保健话题了，好吗？
Governor Romney: Regulation is essential. You can't have a free market work if you don't have regulation. As a businessperson, I had to have -- I need to know the regulations. I needed them there. You couldn't have people opening up banks in their -- in their garage and making loans. I mean, you have to have regulations so that you can have an economy work. Every free economy has good regulation. At the same time, regulation can become excessive. Governor Romney: 监管是必不可少的。如果没有监管，自由市场就无法运转。作为一个商人，我必须了解——我需要知道有哪些监管规定。我需要它们存在。你不能让人在车库里开银行发放贷款。我的意思是，你必须有监管规定才能让经济运转。每个自由经济体都有良好的监管。与此同时，监管也可能变得过度。
LEHRER: Is it excessive now, do you think? LEHRER: 您认为现在是否过度了？
Governor Romney: In some places, yes. Other places, no. Governor Romney: 在某些方面，是的。在其他方面，没有。
LEHRER: Like where? LEHRER: 比如哪些方面？
[Crosstalk] [多人同时说话]
Governor Romney: No, it can become out of date. And what's happened with some of the legislation that's been passed during the President's term, you've seen regulation become excessive, and it's hurt -- it's hurt the economy. Let me give you an example. Dodd-Frank was passed. And it includes within it a number of provisions that I think has some unintended consequences that are harmful to the economy. One is it designates a number of banks as too big to fail, and they're effectively guaranteed by the federal government. Governor Romney: 不，监管可能会过时。在总统任期内通过的一些立法中，你们看到监管变得过度了，这损害了——损害了经济。让我举个例子。《多德-弗兰克法案》获得了通过。其中包含一些我认为对经济有害的意外后果条款。
This is the biggest kiss that's been given to -- to New York banks I've ever seen. This is an enormous boon for them. There've been 122 community and small banks have closed since Dodd- Frank. 一个是它将一些银行指定为「大而不能倒」，它们实际上得到了联邦政府的担保。这是我见过的给纽约银行最大的恩赐。这对他们来说是巨大的好处。自《多德-弗兰克法案》通过以来，已有122家社区银行和小银行关闭。
So there's one example. Here's another. In Dodd-Frank... 这是一个例子。还有一个。《多德-弗兰克法案》中……
LEHRER: Do you want to repeal Dodd-Frank? LEHRER: 您想废除《多德-弗兰克法案》吗？
Governor Romney: Well, I would repeal and replace it. We're not going to get rid of all regulation. You have to have regulation. And there are some parts of Dodd-Frank that make all the sense in the world. You need transparency, you need to have leverage limits for... Governor Romney: 嗯，我会废除并用新的方案替代它。我们不会取消所有监管。你必须有监管。《多德-弗兰克法案》中有些部分是完全合理的。你需要透明度，你需要杠杆限制……
LEHRER: Well, here's a specific... LEHRER: 嗯，这里有一个具体问题……
[Crosstalk] [多人同时说话]
Governor Romney: But let's -- let's mention -- let me mention the other one. Let's talk... Governor Romney: 但让我们——让我们提一下——让我提一下另一个。让我们谈谈……
[Crosstalk] [多人同时说话]
LEHRER: No, let's not. Let's let him respond -- let's let him respond to this specific on Dodd-Frank and what the governor just said. LEHRER: 不，先别谈。让他回应——让他就《多德-弗兰克法案》的具体问题和州长刚才说的内容作出回应。
President Obama: I think this is a great example. The reason we have been in such a enormous economic crisis was prompted by reckless behavior across the board. President Obama: 我认为这是一个很好的例子。我们之所以陷入如此巨大的经济危机，是由各方的鲁莽行为引发的。
Now, it wasn't just on Wall Street. You had loan officers were -- that were giving loans and mortgages that really shouldn't have been given, because the folks didn't qualify. You had people who were borrowing money to buy a house that they couldn't afford. You had credit agencies that were stamping these as A1 great investments when they weren't. 现在，这不仅是在华尔街。你有信贷人员在发放本不该发放的贷款和抵押贷款，因为那些人根本不符合条件。有人借钱买他们负担不起的房子。还有信用评级机构把这些标记为A级优质投资，而实际上并非如此。
But you also had banks making money hand over fist, churning out products that the bankers themselves didn't even understand, in order to make big profits, but knowing that it made the entire system vulnerable. 但你还有银行在疯狂赚钱，大量生产银行家自己都不理解的产品，为了获取巨额利润，却明知这让整个系统变得脆弱。
So what did we do? We stepped in and had the toughest reforms on Wall Street since the 1930s. We said you've got -- banks, you've got to raise your capital requirements. You can't engage in some of this risky behavior that is putting Main Street at risk. We've going to make sure that you've got to have a living will so -- so we can know how you're going to wind things down if you make a bad bet so we don't have other taxpayer bailouts. In the meantime, by the way, we also made sure that all the help that we provided those banks was paid back every single dime, with interest. 那么我们做了什么？我们介入并实施了自1930年代以来对华尔街最严厉的改革。我们说，银行，你们必须提高资本金要求。你们不能从事那些将主街置于风险之中的冒险行为。我们要确保你们必须有「生前遗嘱」——这样我们就能知道如果你们押错了注，你们将如何收场，这样就不会再出现纳税人救助的情况。顺便说一下，与此同时，我们还确保我们提供给那些银行的所有援助都连本带利全部偿还了，每一分钱都还了。
Now, Governor Romney has said he wants to repeal Dodd-Frank. And, you know, I appreciate and it appears we've got some agreement that a marketplace to work has to have some regulation. But in the past, Governor Romney has said he just want to repeal Dodd- Frank, roll it back. And so the question is: Does anybody out there think that the big problem we had is that there was too much oversight and regulation of Wall Street? Because if you do, then Governor Romney is your candidate. But that's not what I believe. 现在，罗姆尼州长说他想废除《多德-弗兰克法案》。而且，你知道，我很感激，看来我们在市场运作需要一定监管这一点上有一些共识。但在过去，罗姆尼州长曾说他就是要废除《多德-弗兰克法案》，将其推翻。所以问题是：在座的有人认为我们面临的重大问题是华尔街受到了太多的监督和监管吗？因为如果你这么认为，那么罗姆尼州长就是你的候选人。但这不是我的信念。
Governor Romney: Sorry, but that's just not -- that's just not the facts. Look, we have to have regulation on Wall Street. That's why I'd have regulation. But I wouldn't designate five banks as too big to fail and give them a blank check. That's one of the unintended consequences of Dodd-Frank. It wasn't thought through properly. We need to get rid of that provision because it's killing regional and small banks. They're getting hurt. Governor Romney: 抱歉，但那不是——那不是事实。听着，我们必须对华尔街进行监管。这就是为什么我要实施监管。但我不会将五家银行指定为「大而不能倒」并给它们一张空白支票。这是《多德-弗兰克法案》的意外后果之一。这个方案没有经过充分的考虑。我们需要废除这一条款，因为它正在扼杀区域性银行和小银行。它们正在受损。
Let me mention another regulation in Dodd-Frank. You say we were giving mortgages to people who weren't qualified. That's exactly right. It's one of the reasons for the great financial calamity we had. And so Dodd-Frank correctly says we need to have qualified mortgages, and if you give a mortgage that's not qualified, there are big penalties, except they didn't ever go on and define what a qualified mortgage was. 让我再提一下《多德-弗兰克法案》中的另一项监管。你说我们向不符合条件的人发放抵押贷款。完全正确。这是我们遭遇重大金融灾难的原因之一。所以《多德-弗兰克法案》正确地指出我们需要有合格抵押贷款，如果你发放了不合格的抵押贷款，将面临巨额罚款，但问题是他们从来没有定义什么是合格抵押贷款。
It's been two years. We don't know what a qualified mortgage is yet. So banks are reluctant to make loans, mortgages. Try and get a mortgage these days. It's hurt the housing market because Dodd-Frank didn't anticipate putting in place the kinds of regulations you have to have. It's not that Dodd-Frank always was wrong with too much regulation. Sometimes they didn't come out with a clear regulation. 已经两年了。我们还不知道什么是合格抵押贷款。所以银行不愿发放贷款和抵押贷款。你试试现在能不能拿到抵押贷款。这损害了房地产市场，因为《多德-弗兰克法案》没有预见性地制定必要的监管规则。问题不在于《多德-弗兰克法案》总是监管过度。有时是它们没有出台明确的监管规定。
I will make sure we don't hurt the functioning of our -- of our marketplace and our business, because I want to bring back housing and get good jobs. 我将确保我们不会损害我们的——我们的市场和企业运转，因为我要重振房地产市场并创造好的就业机会。
LEHRER: All right. I think we have another clear difference between the two of you. Now, let's move to health care where I know there is a clear difference, and that has to do with the Affordable Care Act, Obamacare. And it's a two-minute new -- new segment, and that means two minutes each. And you go first, Governor Romney. You want it repealed. You want the Affordable Care Act repealed. Why? LEHRER: 好的。我想你们两位之间又有一个明显的分歧。现在，让我们转到医疗保健话题，我知道这里有一个明显的分歧，那就是关于《平价医疗法案》，即「奥巴马医改」。这是一个新的两分钟——新环节，也就是说每人两分钟。罗姆尼州长，您先来。您希望废除它。您希望废除《平价医疗法案》。为什么？
Governor Romney: I sure do. Well, in part, it comes, again, from my experience. You know, I was in New Hampshire. A woman came to me and she said, look, I can't afford insurance for myself or my son. I met a couple in Appleton, Wisconsin, and they said, we're thinking of dropping our insurance, we can't afford it. Governor Romney: 我当然想。嗯，部分原因是，这同样来自我的亲身经历。你知道，我在新罕布什尔州。一位女士走到我面前说，你看，我为自己和儿子买不起保险。我在威斯康星州阿普尔顿遇到一对夫妇，他们说，我们正考虑放弃保险，我们负担不起。
And the number of small businesses I've gone to that are saying they're dropping insurance because they can't afford it, the cost of health care is just prohibitive. And -- and we've got to deal with cost. 我去过很多小企业，他们说正在取消保险，因为他们负担不起，医疗保健的成本简直高得令人望而却步。而且——而且我们必须解决成本问题。
And, unfortunately, when -- when -- when you look at Obamacare, the Congressional Budget Office has said it will cost $2,500 a year more than traditional insurance. So it's adding to cost. And as a matter of fact, when the President ran for office, he said that, by this year, he would have brought down the cost of insurance for each family by $2,500 a family. Instead, it's gone up by that amount. So it's expensive. Expensive things hurt families. So that's one reason I don't want it. 而且，不幸的是，当你——当你——当你审视奥巴马医改时，国会预算办公室说它每年比传统保险贵2500美元。所以它在增加成本。事实上，当总统竞选时，他说到今年，他会为每个家庭降低2500美元的保险费用。结果，反而涨了那么多。所以它很昂贵。昂贵的东西伤害家庭。所以这是我不想要它的一个原因。
Second reason, it cuts $716 billion from Medicare to pay for it. I want to put that money back in Medicare for our seniors. Number three, it puts in place an unelected board that's going to tell people ultimately what kind of treatments they can have. I don't like that idea. Fourth, there was a survey done of small businesses across the country, said, what's been the effect of Obamacare on your hiring plans? And three-quarters of them said it makes us less likely to hire people. 第二个原因是，它从联邦医疗保险中削减了7160亿美元来为此买单。我想把这笔钱放回联邦医疗保险中，为我们的老年人服务。第三，它设立了一个非经选举产生的委员会，最终将由它来告诉人们能接受什么样的治疗。我不喜欢这个想法。
I just don't know how the President could have come into office, facing 23 million people out of work, rising unemployment, an economic crisis at the -- at the kitchen table, and spend his energy and passion for two years fighting for Obamacare instead of fighting for jobs for the American people. It has killed jobs. 第四，有人对全国的小企业做了一项调查，问，奥巴马医改对你们的招聘计划有什么影响？四分之三的企业说这让我们更不可能雇人。我就是不明白，总统面对2300万人失业、失业率上升、普通家庭餐桌上的经济危机上台后，怎么能把两年的精力和热情花在为奥巴马医改而战上，而不是为美国人民的就业而战。它扼杀了就业机会。
And the best course for health care is to do what we did in my state: craft a plan at the state level that fits the needs of the state. And then let's focus on getting the costs down for people, rather than raising it with the $2,500 additional premium. 医疗保健的最佳路径是做我们在我的州所做的事：在州层面制定符合该州需求的方案。然后让我们专注于为民众降低成本，而不是用2500美元的额外保费来提高成本。
LEHRER: Mr. President, the argument against repeal? LEHRER: 总统先生，反对废除的理由是什么？
President Obama: Well, four years ago, when I was running for office, I was traveling around and having those same conversations that Governor Romney talks about. And it wasn't just that small businesses were seeing costs skyrocket and they couldn't get affordable coverage even if they wanted to provide it to their employees. It wasn't just that this was the biggest driver of our federal deficit, our overall health care costs, but it was families who were worried about going bankrupt if they got sick, millions of families, all across the country. President Obama: 嗯，四年前我竞选时，我四处奔走，进行着罗姆尼州长所说的那些同样的对话。不仅仅是因为小企业看到成本飞涨，即使想为员工提供保险也无法获得负担得起的保障。不仅仅是因为整体医疗保健成本是联邦赤字的最大推动因素，更是因为有家庭担心一旦生病就会破产，全国数以百万计的家庭都是如此。
If they had a pre-existing condition, they might not be able to get coverage at all. If they did have coverage, insurance companies might impose an arbitrary limit. And so as a consequence, they're paying their premiums, somebody gets really sick, lo and behold, they don't have enough money to pay the bills, because the insurance companies say that they've hit the limit. 如果他们有既往病史，他们可能根本无法获得保险。如果他们确实有保险，保险公司可能会施加任意的限额。因此结果是，他们在按时交保费，有人得了重病，你猜怎么着，他们没有足够的钱付账单，因为保险公司说他们已经达到了限额。
So we did work on this, alongside working on jobs, because this is part of making sure that middle-class families are secure in this country. 所以我们确实在解决就业的同时也在这方面做了工作，因为这是确保中产家庭在这个国家有保障感的一部分。
And let me tell you exactly what Obamacare did. Number one, if you've got health insurance, it doesn't mean a government takeover. You keep your own insurance. You keep your own doctor. But it does say insurance companies can't jerk you around. They can't impose arbitrary lifetime limits. They have to let you keep your kid on their insurance -- your insurance plan until you're 26 years old. And it also says that you're going to have to get rebates if insurance companies are spending more on administrative costs and profits than they are on actual care. 让我确切地告诉你奥巴马医改做了什么。第一，如果你有医疗保险，这不意味着政府接管。你保留你自己的保险。你保留你自己的医生。但它确实规定保险公司不能随意欺负你。它们不能施加任意的终身限额。它们必须允许你的孩子留在你的保险计划上，直到你26岁。它还规定，如果保险公司在管理成本和利润上的花费超过实际医疗支出，你必须获得退款。
Number two, if you don't have health insurance, we're essentially setting up a group plan that allows you to benefit from group rates that are typically 18 percent lower than if you're out there trying to get insurance on the individual market. 第二，如果你没有医疗保险，我们实际上是建立一个团体计划，让你能够享受团体费率，这通常比你个人在市场上购买保险低18%。
Now, the last point I'd make before... 现在，我想说的最后一点是在……之前……
LEHRER: Two minutes -- two minutes is up, sir. LEHRER: 两分钟——两分钟到了，先生。
President Obama: No, I think -- I had five seconds before you interrupted me, was -- the irony is that we've seen this model work really well in Massachusetts, because Governor Romney did a good thing, working with Democrats in the state to set up what is essentially the identical model and as a consequence people are covered there. It hasn't destroyed jobs. And as a consequence, we now have a system in which we have the opportunity to start bringing down costs, as opposed to just leaving millions of people out in the cold. President Obama: 不，我想——在你打断我之前我还有五秒钟的时间——讽刺的是，我们看到这个模式在马萨诸塞州运作得非常好，因为罗姆尼州长做了一件好事，与州内的民主党人合作建立了一个基本上完全相同的模式，因此那里的人们都得到了保障。它并没有摧毁就业。因此，我们现在拥有一个系统，让我们有机会开始降低成本，而不是把数百万人晾在一边不管。
LEHRER: Your five seconds went away a long time ago. All right, Governor. Governor, tell -- tell the President directly why you think what he just said is wrong about Obamacare? LEHRER: 您的五秒钟早就过了。好的，州长。州长，请直接告诉总统，您为什么认为他刚才关于奥巴马医改所说的内容是错的？
Governor Romney: Well, I did with my first statement. Governor Romney: 嗯，我在我的第一次发言中已经说了。
[Crosstalk] [多人同时说话]
Governor Romney: First of all, I like the way we did it in Massachusetts. I like the fact that in my state, we had Republicans and Democrats come together and work together. What you did instead was to push through a plan without a single Republican vote. As a matter of fact, when Massachusetts did something quite extraordinary -- elected a Republican senator to stop Obamacare, you pushed it through anyway. Governor Romney: 首先，我喜欢我们在马萨诸塞州的做法。我喜欢在我的州，共和党人和民主党人能够团结合作。而你所做的却是没有一张共和党票就强行通过了一个方案。事实上，当马萨诸塞州做了一件相当不寻常的事——选出了一位共和党参议员来阻止奥巴马医改时，你还是强行通过了它。
So entirely on a partisan basis, instead of bringing America together and having a discussion on this important topic, you pushed through something that you and Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid thought was the best answer and drove it through. 所以完全是基于党派立场，而不是把美国团结起来就这个重要话题进行讨论，你强行通过了一个你、南希·佩洛西和哈里·里德认为最好的方案，并一路推行到底。
What we did in a legislature 87 percent Democrat, we worked together; 200 legislators in my legislature, only two voted against the plan by the time we were finished. What were some differences? We didn't raise taxes. You've raised them by $1 trillion under Obamacare. We didn't cut Medicare. Of course, we don't have Medicare, but we didn't cut Medicare by $716 billion. 我们在一个87%是民主党人的立法机构中，大家共同合作；我的立法机构有200名议员，到最后只有两人投票反对该方案。有哪些不同之处呢？我们没有增税。你在奥巴马医改下增税了1万亿美元。我们没有削减联邦医疗保险。当然，我们没有联邦医疗保险，但我们没有削减7160亿美元的联邦医疗保险。
We didn't put in place a board that can tell people ultimately what treatments they're going to receive. We didn't also do something that I think a number of people across this country recognize, which is put -- put people in a position where they're going to lose the insurance they had and they wanted. 我们没有设立一个最终能告诉人们他们将接受什么治疗的委员会。我们也没有做一件我认为全国许多人都认识到的事情，那就是把人们置于一种他们将失去已有的、想要的保险的境地。
Right now, the CBO says up to 20 million people will lose their insurance as Obamacare goes into effect next year. And likewise, a study by McKinsey and Company of American businesses said 30 percent of them are anticipating dropping people from coverage. 目前，国会预算办公室说明年奥巴马医改生效时，将有多达2000万人失去保险。同样，麦肯锡公司对美国企业的一项调查显示，30%的企业预计将不再为员工提供保险。
So for those reasons, for the tax, for Medicare, for this board, and for people losing their insurance, this is why the American people don't want Medicare -- don't want Obamacare. It's why Republicans said, do not do this, and the Republicans had -- had the plan. They put a plan out. They put out a plan, a bipartisan plan. It was swept aside. 所以出于这些原因，因为税收、因为联邦医疗保险、因为这个委员会、因为人们将失去保险，这就是为什么美国人民不想要联邦医疗保险——不想要奥巴马医改。这就是为什么共和党人说不要这样做，而共和党人曾经——有过方案。他们提出了一个方案。他们提出了一个两党方案。但它被搁置了。
I think something this big, this important has to be done on a bipartisan basis. And we have to have a President who can reach across the aisle and fashion important legislation with the input from both parties. 我认为这么重大、这么重要的事情必须以两党合作的方式来完成。我们必须有一个能够跨越党派界限、在两党共同参与下制定重要立法的总统。
President Obama: Governor Romney said this has to be done on a bipartisan basis. This was a bipartisan idea. In fact, it was a Republican idea. And Governor Romney at the beginning of this debate wrote and said what we did in Massachusetts could be a model for the nation. President Obama: 罗姆尼州长说这必须以两党合作的方式完成。这本来就是一个两党的想法。事实上，这还是共和党的想法。罗姆尼州长在这场辩论一开始时就写过也说过，我们在马萨诸塞州所做的可以成为全国的典范。
And I agree that the Democratic legislators in Massachusetts might have given some advice to Republicans in Congress about how to cooperate, but the fact of the matter is, we used the same advisers, and they say it's the same plan. 我同意马萨诸塞州的民主党议员可能给国会共和党人提供了一些关于如何合作的建议，但事实是，我们使用了同样的顾问，他们说这是同样的方案。
It -- when Governor Romney talks about this board, for example, unelected board that we've created, what this is, is a group of health care experts, doctors, et cetera, to figure out, how can we reduce the cost of care in the system overall? 当罗姆尼州长谈到这个委员会时，比如我们设立的这个非经选举产生的委员会，它的实质是一群医疗保健专家、医生等，来研究如何降低整体医疗系统的成本？
Because there -- there are two ways of dealing with our health care crisis. One is to simply leave a whole bunch of people uninsured and let them fend for themselves, to let businesses figure out how long they can continue to pay premiums until finally they just give up, and their workers are no longer getting insured, and that's been the trend line. 因为应对我们的医疗保健危机有两种方式。一种是干脆让一大批人没有保险、自生自灭，让企业自己想办法看能继续支付保费多久，直到最终放弃，他们的员工就不再有保险了，而这一直是趋势线。
Or, alternatively, we can figure out, how do we make the cost of care more effective? And there are ways of doing it. 或者，我们可以想办法，如何让医疗成本更有效？确实有一些方法可以做到。
So at Cleveland Clinic, one of the best health care systems in the world, they actually provide great care cheaper than average. And the reason they do is because they do some smart things. They -- they say, if a patient's coming in, let's get all the doctors together at once, do one test instead of having the patient run around with 10 tests. Let's make sure that we're providing preventive care so we're catching the onset of something like diabetes. Let's -- let's pay providers on the basis of performance as opposed to on the basis of how many procedures they've -- they've engaged in. 以克利夫兰医学中心为例，它是世界上最好的医疗系统之一，他们实际上以低于平均水平的价格提供了优质的医疗服务。他们之所以能做到这一点，是因为他们做了一些聪明的事情。他们说，如果一个患者来就诊，让我们把所有医生一次性召集到一起，做一次检查，而不是让患者跑来跑去地做10次检查。让我们确保提供预防性护理，这样我们就能及早发现糖尿病之类疾病的征兆。让我们根据表现而不是根据他们执行了多少项操作来向医疗服务提供者支付费用。
Now, so what this board does is basically identifies best practices and says, let's use the purchasing power of Medicare and Medicaid to help to institutionalize all these good things that we do. 所以这个委员会的基本职能就是识别最佳实践，并说，让我们利用联邦医疗保险和医疗补助的购买力来帮助将我们做的所有这些好事制度化。
And the fact of the matter is that, when Obamacare is fully implemented, we're going to be in a position to show that costs are going down. And over the last two years, health care premiums have gone up -- it's true -- but they've gone up slower than any time in the last 50 years. So we're already beginning to see progress. In the meantime, folks out there with insurance, you're already getting a rebate. 事实是，当奥巴马医改全面实施后，我们将能够展示成本正在下降。在过去的两年里，医疗保险保费确实上涨了——这是事实——但它们的上涨速度是过去50年来最慢的。所以我们已经开始看到进展了。与此同时，那些有保险的人们，你们已经开始获得退款了。
Let me make one last point. Governor Romney says, we should replace it, I'm just going to repeal it, but -- but we can replace it with something. But the problem is, he hasn't described what exactly we'd replace it with, other than saying we're going to leave it to the states. 让我再说最后一点。罗姆尼州长说，我们应该替代它，我只是要废除它，但——但我们可以用其他东西替代它。但问题是，除了说我们要把它交给各州之外，他并没有描述我们到底要用什么来替代它。
But the fact of the matter is that some of the prescriptions that he's offered, like letting you buy insurance across state lines, there's no indication that that somehow is going to help somebody who's got a pre-existing condition be able to finally buy insurance. In fact, it's estimated that by repealing Obamacare, you're looking at 50 million people losing health insurance... 但事实是，他提出的一些方案，比如允许你跨州购买保险，没有任何迹象表明这能帮助那些有既往病史的人最终买到保险。事实上，据估计如果废除奥巴马医改，将有5000万人失去医疗保险……
LEHRER: Let's... LEHRER: 让我们……
President Obama: ... at a time when it's vitally important. President Obama: ……在一个至关重要的时刻。
LEHRER: Let's let the governor explain what you would do... LEHRER: 让州长解释一下您会怎么做……
Governor Romney: Well... Governor Romney: 嗯……
LEHRER: ... if Obamacare is repealed. How would you replace it? LEHRER: ……如果奥巴马医改被废除。您将如何替代它？
[Crosstalk] [多人同时说话]
Governor Romney: Well, actually it's -- it's -- it's a lengthy description. But, number one, preexisting conditions are covered under my plan. Number two, young people are able to stay on their family plan. That's already offered in the private marketplace. You don't have to have the government mandate that for that to occur. But let's come back to something the President and I agree on, which is the key task we have in health care is to get the cost down so it's more affordable for families. Governor Romney: 嗯，实际上这是——这是——这是一个很长的描述。但是，第一，既往病史在我的计划中是受保障的。第二，年轻人可以继续留在家庭计划上。这在私人市场中已经提供了。
And then he has as a model for doing that a board of people at the government, an unelected board, appointed board, who are going to decide what kind of treatment you ought to have. 你不需要政府强制命令才能实现这一点。但让我们回到总统和我都同意的一点上，那就是我们在医疗保健方面面临的关键任务是把成本降下来，让家庭更能负担得起。然后他有一个模式来实现这一目标，就是设立一个政府委员会，一个非经选举产生的、由任命产生的委员会，他们将决定你应该接受什么样的治疗。
[Crosstalk] [多人同时讲话]
Governor Romney: In my opinion, the government is not effective in -- in bringing down the cost of almost anything. As a matter of fact, free people and free enterprises trying to find ways to do things better are able to be more effective in bringing down the cost than the government will ever be. Your example of the Cleveland Clinic is my case in point, along with several others I could describe. This is the private market. These are small -- these are enterprises competing with each other, learning how to do better and better jobs. Governor Romney: 在我看来，政府在降低几乎任何东西的成本方面都是低效的。事实上，自由的人和自由企业努力寻找把事情做得更好的方法，在降低成本方面比政府有效得多。您举的克利夫兰诊所的例子正好证明了这一点，我还可以举出其他几个例子。这是私人市场。
I used to consult to businesses -- excuse me, to hospitals and to health care providers. I was astonished at the creativity and innovation that exists in the American people. 这些是相互竞争的企业，不断学习如何把工作做得越来越好。我以前为企业——不好意思，为医院和医疗保健提供者做过咨询。我对美国人民所拥有的创造力和创新精神感到惊叹。
In order to bring the cost of health care down, we don't need to have a board of 15 people telling us what kinds of treatments we should have. We instead need to put insurance plans, providers, hospitals, doctors on target such that they have an incentive, as you say, performance pay, for doing an excellent job, for keeping costs down, and that's happening. Innermountain Healthcare does it superbly well, Mayo Clinic is doing it superbly well, Cleveland Clinic, others. 为了降低医疗保健的成本，我们不需要一个由15人组成的委员会来告诉我们应该接受什么样的治疗。相反，我们需要让保险计划、提供者、医院和医生明确目标，使他们有动力——如您所说，绩效薪酬——去做好工作，去降低成本，而这正在发生。山间医疗保健做得非常出色，梅奥诊所做得非常出色，克利夫兰诊所和其他机构也是如此。
But the right answer is not to have the federal government take over health care and start mandating to the providers across America, telling a patient and a doctor what kind of treatment they can have. That's the wrong way to go. The private market and individual responsibility always work best. 但正确的答案不是让联邦政府接管医疗保健，然后开始向全美的医疗提供者发号施令，告诉患者和医生他们可以接受什么样的治疗。那是错误的方向。私人市场和个人责任总是最有效的。
President Obama: Let me just point out first of all this board that we're talking about can't make decisions about what treatments are given. That's explicitly prohibited in the law. But let's go back to what Governor Romney indicated, that under his plan, he would be able to cover people with preexisting conditions. President Obama: 首先让我指出，我们正在讨论的这个委员会不能决定提供什么样的治疗。这是法律明确禁止的。但让我们回到罗姆尼州长所说的，在他的计划下，他能够覆盖已有既往病史的人群。
Well, actually Governor, that isn't what your plan does. What your plan does is to duplicate what's already the law, which says if you are out of health insurance for three months, then you can end up getting continuous coverage and an insurance company can't deny you if you've -- if it's been under 90 days. 实际上，州长，您的计划并非如此。您的计划只是重复了现有法律的规定，即如果您脱离医疗保险不超过三个月，就可以获得连续覆盖，如果未超过90天，保险公司就不能拒绝您。
But that's already the law and that doesn't help the millions of people out there with preexisting conditions. There's a reason why Governor Romney set up the plan that he did in Massachusetts. It wasn't a government takeover of health care. It was the largest expansion of private insurance. But what it does say is that "insurers, you've got to take everybody." 但这已经是法律规定的了，对数百万有既往病史的人来说毫无帮助。罗姆尼州长在马萨诸塞州制定他的计划是有原因的。那不是政府接管医疗保健。那是私人保险最大规模的扩张。但它确实规定「保险公司必须接受所有人」。
Now, that also means that you've got more customers. But when -- when Governor Romney says that he'll replace it with something, but can't detail how it will be in fact replaced and the reason he set up the system he did in Massachusetts was because there isn't a better way of dealing with the preexisting conditions problem. 这也意味着保险公司获得了更多客户。但是，当罗姆尼州长说他要用其他东西来替代，却无法详细说明究竟如何替代时，他当初在马萨诸塞州建立这套制度的原因正是因为没有更好的方法来解决既往病史的问题。
It just reminds me of, you know, he says that he's going to close deductions and loopholes for his tax plan. That's how it's going to be paid for, but we don't know the details. He says that he's going to replace Dodd-Frank, Wall Street reform, but we don't know exactly which ones. He won't tell us. He now says he's going to replace Obamacare and ensure that all the good things that are in it are going to be in there and you don't have to worry. 这让我想起，他说他要取消税收减免和漏洞来为他的税收计划买单。这就是该计划的资金来源，但我们不知道细节。他说他要替代《多德-弗兰克法案》，即华尔街改革法案，但我们不知道具体要替代哪些内容。他不肯告诉我们。他现在说他要替代奥巴马医改，并确保其中所有的好处都会保留，大家不必担心。
And at some point, I think the American people have to ask themselves, is the reason that Governor Romney is keeping all these plans to replace secret because they're too good? Is it -- is it because that somehow middle-class families are going to benefit too much from them? 在某种程度上，我认为美国人民必须问问自己，罗姆尼州长将所有这些替代计划保密的原因是因为它们太好了吗？是因为中产家庭会从中受益太多吗？
No. The reason is, is because, when we reform Wall Street, when we tackle the problem of pre-existing conditions, then, you know, these are tough problems and we've got to make choices. And the choices we've made have been ones that ultimately are benefiting middle-class families all across the country. 不是的。原因是，当我们改革华尔街，当我们解决既往病史问题时，这些都是艰难的问题，我们必须做出选择。而我们做出的选择最终让全国的中产家庭受益。
LEHRER: We're going to move to... LEHRER: 我们接下来要转到……
Governor Romney: No. I -- I have to respond to that. Governor Romney: 不，我——我必须对此做出回应。
LEHRER: No, but... LEHRER: 不，但是……
Governor Romney: Which is -- which is my experience as a governor is if I come in and -- and lay down a piece of legislation and say, "It's my way or the highway," I don't get a lot done. What I do is the same way that Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan worked together some years ago. When Ronald Reagan ran for office, he laid out the principles that he was going to foster. He said he was going to lower tax rates. He said he was going to broaden the base. You've said the same thing, you're going to simplify the tax code, broaden the base. Governor Romney: 这——这是我作为州长的经验，如果我走进来提出一项法案然后说「要么按我的来，要么就别干」，我做不成多少事。我的做法就像多年前蒂普·奥尼尔和罗纳德·里根合作的方式一样。当罗纳德·里根竞选时，他阐述了他要推行的原则。他说他要降低税率。他说他要扩大税基。您也说了同样的话，您要简化税法、扩大税基。
Those are my principles. I want to bring down the tax burden on middle-income families. And I'm going to work together with Congress to say, OK, what -- what are the various ways we could bring down deductions, for instance? One way, for instance, would be to have a single number. Make up a number, $25,000, $50,000. Anybody can have deductions up to that amount. And then that number disappears for high-income people. That's one way one could do it. One could follow Bowles-Simpson as a model and take deduction by deduction and make differences that way. 这些就是我的原则。我希望减轻中产家庭的税收负担。我将与国会合作，讨论我们有哪些方法可以减少税收减免。例如，一种方法是设定一个统一数字。随便取个数，25,000美元、50,000美元。任何人都可以享受不超过这个金额的税收减免。然后对高收入人群来说这个数字就消失了。这是一种可行的方式。
There are alternatives to accomplish the objective I have, which is to bring down rates, broaden the base, simplify the code, and create incentives for growth. And with regards to health care, you had remarkable details with regards to my pre-existing condition plan. You obviously studied up on -- on my plan. In fact, I do have a plan that deals with people with pre-existing conditions. That's part of my health care plan. And what we did in Massachusetts is a model for the nation state by state. And I said that at that time. 也可以以鲍尔斯-辛普森方案为模型，逐项处理税收减免并做出调整。实现我的目标有多种替代方案，即降低税率、扩大税基、简化税法，并为经济增长创造激励。至于医疗保健，您对我的既往病史计划了解得相当详细。您显然对我的计划做了功课。事实上，我确实有一个针对既往病史人群的计划。这是我医疗保健计划的一部分。我们在马萨诸塞州所做的可以成为全国各州逐州效仿的模式。我当时就说了。
The federal government taking over health care for the entire nation and whisking aside the 10th Amendment, which gives states the rights for these kinds of things, is not the course for America to have a stronger, more vibrant economy. 联邦政府接管全国的医疗保健，并将赋予各州此类权利的第十修正案抛到一边，这不是让美国拥有更强大、更有活力经济的正确道路。
LEHRER: That is a terrific segue to our next segment, and is the role of government. And -- and let's see. Role of government. And it is -- you are first on this, Mr. President. And the question is this. Do you believe, both of you -- but you had the first two minutes on this, Mr. President -- do you believe there's a fundamental difference between the two of you as to how you view the mission of the federal government? LEHRER: 这正好引出了我们的下一个话题，即政府的角色。让我们看看。政府的角色。这个问题——总统先生，您先来。问题是这样的。你们两位是否相信——但总统先生您先有两分钟——你们两人在如何看待联邦政府的使命方面是否存在根本性的分歧？
President Obama: Well, I definitely think there are differences. President Obama: 嗯，我确实认为存在分歧。
LEHRER: And do you -- yeah. LEHRER: 那么您是否——好的。
President Obama: The first role of the federal government is to keep the American people safe. That's its most basic function. And as commander-in-chief, that is something that I've worked on and thought about every single day that I've been in the Oval Office. But I also believe that government has the capacity, the federal government has the capacity to help open up opportunity and create ladders of opportunity and to create frameworks where the American people can succeed. President Obama: 联邦政府的首要角色是保障美国人民的安全。这是它最基本的功能。作为三军统帅，这是我在椭圆形办公室的每一天都在努力工作和思考的事情。
Look, the genius of America is the free enterprise system and freedom and the fact that people can go out there and start a business, work on an idea, make their own decisions. 但我也相信政府有能力，联邦政府有能力帮助创造机会、搭建通往机会的阶梯，并创建让美国人民能够成功的框架。看，美国的精髓在于自由企业制度、自由，以及人民可以走出去创业、实践创意、做出自己的决定。
But as Abraham Lincoln understood, there are also some things we do better together. So, in the middle of the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln said, let's help to finance the Transcontinental Railroad, let's start the National Academy of Sciences, let's start land grant colleges, because we want to give these gateways of opportunity for all Americans, because if all Americans are getting opportunity, we're all going to be better off. That doesn't restrict people's freedom. That enhances it. 但正如亚伯拉罕·林肯所理解的，有些事情我们共同做会更好。所以，在内战期间，亚伯拉罕·林肯说，让我们资助建设跨大陆铁路，让我们创建国家科学院，让我们创办赠地大学，因为我们要为所有美国人打开这些机会之门，因为如果所有美国人都能获得机会，我们所有人都会过得更好。这不限制人们的自由，反而增强了自由。
And so what I've tried to do as President is to apply those same principles. 因此，我作为总统所努力做的，就是运用这些同样的原则。
And when it comes to education what I've said is we've got to reform schools that are not working. We use something called Race to the Top. Wasn't a top-down approach, Governor. What we've said is to states, we'll give you more money if you initiate reforms. And as a consequence, you had 46 states around the country who have made a real difference. 在教育方面，我说过我们必须改革那些不达标的学校。我们实施了一项叫做「力争上游」的计划。这不是自上而下的方式，州长。我们向各州表示，如果你们发起改革，我们就给你们更多资金。结果是，全国有46个州做出了真正的改变。
But what I've also said is let's hire another 100,000 math and science teachers to make sure we maintain our technological lead and our people are skilled and able to succeed. And hard-pressed states right now can't all do that. In fact we've seen layoffs of hundreds of thousands of teachers over the last several years, and Governor Romney doesn't think we need more teachers. I do, because I think that that is the kind of investment where the federal government can help. 但我还说过，让我们再聘用10万名数学和科学教师，以确保我们保持技术领先，让我们的人民具备技能并能够成功。但目前财政困难的州无法全部做到这一点。事实上，在过去几年里我们看到了数十万名教师被裁，而罗姆尼州长认为我们不需要更多教师。我不同意，因为我认为这正是联邦政府可以提供帮助的那种投资。
It can't do it all, but it can make a difference. And as a consequence we'll have a better trained workforce and that will create jobs because companies want to locate in places where we've got a skilled workforce. 它不能包揽一切，但可以发挥作用。结果是，我们将拥有一支训练有素的劳动力队伍，这将创造就业机会，因为公司希望设在拥有熟练劳动力的地方。
LEHRER: Two minutes, Governor, on the role of government. Your view? LEHRER: 两分钟，州长，关于政府的角色。您的看法呢？
Governor Romney: Well, first, I love great schools. Massachusetts, our schools are ranked number one of all 50 states. And the key to great schools, great teachers. So I reject the idea that I don't believe in great teachers or more teachers. Every school district, every state should make that decision on their own. The role of government: Look behind us. The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. The role of government is to promote and protect the principles of those documents. Governor Romney: 首先，我热爱优秀的学校。马萨诸塞州的学校在50个州中排名第一。优秀学校的关键在于优秀的教师。所以我拒绝那种认为我不相信优秀教师或更多教师的说法。每个学区、每个州都应该自己做出决定。政府的角色：看看我们身后。《宪法》和《独立宣言》。政府的角色是促进和保护这些文件中的原则。
First, life and liberty. We have a responsibility to protect the lives and liberties of our people, and that means a military second to none. I do not believe in cutting our military. I believe in maintaining the strength of America's military. 第一，生命和自由。我们有责任保护人民的生命和自由，这意味着拥有一支无与伦比的军队。我不赞成削减军费。我主张维持美国军队的实力。
Second, in that line that says we are endowed by our creator with our rights, I believe we must maintain our commitment to religious tolerance and freedom in this country. That statement also says that we are endowed by our creator with the right to pursue happiness as we choose. I interpret that as, one, making sure that those people who are less fortunate and can't care for themselves are cared by -- by one another. 第二，在那段我们被造物主赋予权利的宣言中，我相信我们必须维持这个国家对宗教宽容和自由的承诺。那段宣言还说我们被造物主赋予追求幸福的权利。我的理解是，首先，确保那些不幸的、无法自理的人得到彼此的关爱。
We're a nation that believes that we're all children of the same god and we care for those that have difficulties, those that are elderly and have problems and challenges, those that are disabled. We care for them. And we -- we look for discovery and innovation, all these things desired out of the American heart to provide the pursuit of happiness for our citizens. 我们是一个相信我们都是同一个上帝的孩子的国家，我们关爱那些有困难的人，关爱那些年迈、有问题和挑战的人，关爱那些残疾人。我们关爱他们。我们——我们追求发现和创新，所有这些都是源自美国人民内心深处的愿望，以为我们的公民提供追求幸福的权利。
But we also believe in maintaining for individuals the right to pursue their dreams and not to have the government substitute itself for the rights of free individuals. And what we're seeing right now is, in my view, a -- a trickle-down government approach, which has government thinking it can do a better job than free people pursuing their dreams. And it's not working. 但我们也相信，要维护个人追求梦想的权利，而不是让政府取代自由个人的权利。在我看来，我们现在看到的是一种——一种「涓滴式政府」的做法，即政府认为自己能比追求梦想的自由人民做得更好。但这并不奏效。
And the proof of that is 23 million people out of work. The proof of that is 1 out of 6 people in poverty. The proof of that is we've gone from 32 million on food stamps to 47 million on food stamps. The proof of that is that 50 percent of college graduates this year can't find work. 证据就是2300万人失业。证据就是每6个人中就有1人处于贫困之中。证据就是领取食品券的人数从3200万增加到了4700万。证据就是今年50%的大学毕业生找不到工作。
LEHRER: All right. LEHRER: 好的。
Governor Romney: We know that the path we're taking is not working. It's time for a new path. Governor Romney: 我们知道我们正在走的路行不通。是时候走一条新路了。
LEHRER: All right. Let's go through some specifics in terms of what -- how each of you views the role of government. How do -- education. Does the federal government have a responsibility to improve the quality of public education in America? LEHRER: 好的。让我们具体看看你们各自如何看待政府的角色。教育方面——联邦政府是否有责任提高美国公立教育的质量？
Governor Romney: Well, the primary responsibility for education is -- is, of course, at the state and local level. But the federal government also can play a very important role. And I -- and I agree with Secretary Arne Duncan, he's -- some ideas he's put forward on Race to the Top, not all of them, but some of them I agree with and -- and congratulate him for pursuing that. The federal government can get local and -- and state schools to do a better job. Governor Romney: 教育的首要责任当然在州和地方一级。但联邦政府也可以发挥非常重要的作用。我——我同意阿恩·邓肯部长的看法，他在「力争上游」方面提出的一些想法——不是全部，但有一些我同意——我祝贺他在这方面所做的努力。联邦政府可以促使地方和州的学校做得更好。
My own view, by the way, is I've added to that. I happen to believe, I want the kids that are getting federal dollars from IDEA or Title I -- these are disabled kids or -- or -- or poor kids or -- or lower-income kids, rather, I want them to be able to go to the school of their choice. So all federal funds, instead of going to the -- to the state or to the school district, I'd have go, if you will, follow the child and let the parent and the child decide where to send their -- their -- their student. 顺便说一下，我的看法是，我在此基础上进一步提出了一些建议。我认为，我希望那些获得IDEA法案或第一章联邦拨款的孩子——这些是残疾儿童或——或贫困儿童或——或低收入家庭的儿童——能够去他们选择的学校。因此，所有联邦资金不是拨给州或学区，而是，如果您愿意的话，跟着孩子走，让家长和孩子决定把自己的学生送到哪里。
LEHRER: How do you see the federal government's responsibility to, as I say, to improve the quality of public education in this country? LEHRER: 您如何看待联邦政府，如我所说，提高这个国家公立教育质量的责任？
President Obama: Well, as I've indicated, I think that it has a significant role to play. Through our Race to the Top program, we've worked with Republican and Democratic governors to initiate major reforms, and they're having an impact right now. President Obama: 正如我所说，我认为它发挥着重要的作用。通过我们的「力争上游」计划，我们与共和党和民主党的州长合作发起重大改革，这些改革正在产生效果。
LEHRER: Do you think you have a difference with your views and -- and those of Governor Romney on -- about education and the federal government? LEHRER: 您认为您和罗姆尼州长在教育以及联邦政府方面的观点有分歧吗？
President Obama: You know, this is where budgets matter, because budgets reflect choices. So when Governor Romney indicates that he wants to cut taxes and potentially benefit folks like me and him, and to pay for it we're having to initiate significant cuts in federal support for education, that makes a difference. President Obama: 您知道，这正是预算重要的地方，因为预算反映了选择。当罗姆尼州长表示他要减税，可能使像我和他这样的人受益，而为了为此买单，我们不得不大幅削减联邦对教育的支持，这就产生了影响。
You know, his -- his running mate, Congressman Ryan, put forward a budget that reflects many of the principles that Governor Romney's talked about. And it wasn't very detailed. This seems to be a trend. But -- but what it did do is to -- if you extrapolated how much money we're talking about, you'd look at cutting the education budget by up to 20 percent. 您知道，他的——他的竞选搭档，瑞安众议员，提出了一份反映罗姆尼州长所谈到的许多原则的预算案。而且那份预算不太详细。这似乎是一种趋势。但是——但它所表明的是——如果你推算一下我们谈论的资金规模，你会发现教育预算将被削减多达20%。
When it comes to community colleges, we are seeing great work done out there all over the country because we have the opportunity to train people for jobs that exist right now. And one of the things I suspect Governor Romney and I probably agree on is getting businesses to work with community colleges so that they're setting up their training programs... 在社区大学方面，我们正在看到全国各地的出色工作，因为我们有机会为现有工作岗位培训人才。我猜想，罗姆尼州长和我可能在让企业与社区大学合作方面有共识，以便它们设立培训项目……
LEHRER: Do you -- do you agree, Governor? LEHRER: 您同意吗，州长？
President Obama: Let me just finish the point. President Obama: 让我把话说完。
[Crosstalk] [多人同时讲话]
President Obama: The -- where they're partnering so that they're designing training programs. And people who are going through them know that there's a job waiting for them if they complete it. That makes a big difference, but that requires some federal support. President Obama: 就是——企业与社区大学合作设计培训项目的地方。参加培训的人知道，只要完成培训就有工作等着他们。这产生了很大的影响，但这需要一些联邦支持。
Let me just say one final example. When it comes to making college affordable, whether it's two-year or four-year, one of the things that I did as President was we were sending $60 billion to banks and lenders as middlemen for the student loan program, even though the loans were guaranteed. So there was no risk for the banks or the lenders, but they were taking billions out of the system. 让我再举最后一个例子。在让大学学费变得可负担方面，无论是两年制还是四年制大学，我作为总统所做的一件事是：我们曾经向银行和贷款机构支付600亿美元作为学生贷款项目的中间人费用，即使这些贷款是有担保的。所以银行和贷款机构没有任何风险，却从系统中拿走了数十亿美元。
And we said, "Why not cut out the middleman?" And as a consequence, what we've been able to do is to provide millions more students assistance, lower or keep low interest rates on student loans. And this is an example of where our priorities make a difference. 于是我们说，「为什么不取消中间人呢？」结果是，我们能够为数百万学生提供更多资助，降低或保持学生贷款的低利率。这就是我们的优先事项产生影响的例子。
Governor Romney, I genuinely believe cares about education, but when he tells a student that, you know, "you should borrow money from your parents to go to college," you know, that indicates the degree to which, you know, there may not be as much of a focus on the fact that folks like myself, folks like Michelle, kids probably who attend University of Denver, just don't have that option. 罗姆尼州长，我真诚地相信他关心教育，但当他告诉一个学生「你应该向你的父母借钱上大学」时，这表明他可能在某种程度上没有关注到这样一个事实：像我自己这样的人，像米歇尔这样的人，可能就读于丹佛大学的学生们，根本没有这个选择。
And for us to be able to make sure that they've got that opportunity and they can walk through that door, that is vitally important not just to those kids. It's how we're going to grow this economy over the long term. 确保他们拥有这样的机会，能够推开那扇门，这不仅对这些孩子至关重要。这也是我们长期发展经济的方式。
LEHRER: We're running out of time, gentlemen. LEHRER: 先生们，我们的时间快到了。
[Crosstalk] [多人同时讲话]
LEHRER: Governor? LEHRER: 州长？
Governor Romney: Mr. President, Mr. President, you're entitled as the President to your own airplane and to your own house, but not to your own facts. All right, I'm not going to cut education funding. I don't have any plan to cut education funding and -- and grants that go to people going to college. I'm planning on [inaudible] to grow. So I'm not planning on making changes there. Governor Romney: 总统先生，总统先生，作为总统，您有权拥有自己的飞机和自己的房子，但无权拥有自己的事实。好了，我不会削减教育经费。我没有任何削减教育经费的计划，也不会削减给大学生的助学金。我计划在[听不清]方面增长。所以我不计划在那里做出改变。
But you make a very good point, which is that the place you put your money just makes a pretty clear indication of where your heart is. You put $90 billion into -- into green jobs. And I -- look, I'm all in favor of green energy. $90 billion, that would have -- that would have hired 2 million teachers. $90 billion. 但您提出了一个很好的观点，即您把钱投到哪里就很清楚地表明了您的心在哪里。您向绿色就业投入了900亿美元。而且我——听着，我完全支持绿色能源。900亿美元，那本可以——本可以聘用200万名教师。900亿美元。
And these businesses, many of them have gone out of business, I think about half of them, of the ones have been invested in have gone out of business. A number of them happened to be owned by people who were contributors to your campaigns. 这些企业中，很多已经倒闭了，我想大概有一半获得投资的企业倒闭了。其中一些企业的所有者恰好是您竞选活动的捐款人。
Look, the right course for America's government, we were talking about the role of government, is not to become the economic player, picking winners and losers, telling people what kind of health treatment they can receive, taking over the health care system that has existed in this country for a long, long time and has produced the best health records in the world. 听着，美国政府的正确方向——我们刚才在谈政府的角色——不是成为经济参与者，挑选赢家和输家，告诉人们可以接受什么样的医疗，接管这个国家长期存在的、创造了世界上最好医疗记录的医疗保健系统。
The right answer for government is say, How do we make the private sector become more efficient and more effective? How do we get schools to be more competitive? Let's grade them. I propose we grade our schools so parents know which schools are succeeding and failing, so they can take their child to a -- to a school that he's being more successful. 政府的正确答案是，我们如何让私营部门变得更加高效和有效？我们如何让学校更具竞争力？让我们给学校打分。我提议给学校评级，让家长知道哪些学校在成功，哪些在失败，这样他们就可以把孩子送到更有成效的学校。
I don't want to cut our commitment to education. I wanted to make it more effective and efficient. And by the way, I've had that experience. I don't just talk about it. I've been there. Massachusetts schools are ranked number one in the nation. This is not because I didn't have commitment to education. It's because I care about education for all of our kids. 我不想削减我们对教育的投入。我想让它更加有效和高效。顺便说一下，我有这方面的经验。我不只是说说而已。我亲身经历过。马萨诸塞州的学校在全国排名第一。这不是因为我对教育没有投入。而是因为我关心所有孩子的教育。
LEHRER: All right, gentlemen... LEHRER: 好的，先生们……
[Crosstalk] [多人同时讲话]
LEHRER: Excuse me [inaudible]. Excuse me, sir. We've got -- we've got -- barely have three minutes left. I'm not going to grade the two of you and say your answers have been too long or I've done a poor job. LEHRER: 打断一下[听不清]。打扰一下，先生。我们——我们——只剩下不到三分钟了。我不会给你们两位打分，说你们的回答太长，或者说我的工作做得不好。
President Obama: You've done a great job. President Obama: 您做得很好。
LEHRER: Oh, well, no. But the fact is government -- the role of government and governing, we've lost a pod in other words. So we only have three -- three minutes left in the -- in the debate before we go to your closing statements. And so I want to ask finally here, and remember, we've got three minutes total time here -- and the question is this. Many of the legislative functions of the federal government right now are in a state of paralysis as a result of partisan gridlock. If elected, in your case, if re-elected, in your case, what would you do about that? LEHRER: 哦，不。但事实是政府——政府的角色和治理，我们丢了一个话题。所以我们只剩三——三分钟来进行这场——辩论，然后就进入你们的结束语。所以我想最后问一下，请记住，我们总共只有三分钟时间——问题是这样的。目前联邦政府的许多立法功能由于党派僵局而处于瘫痪状态。如果当选——在您的情况下是连任——你们将如何应对这个问题？
Governor? 州长？
Governor Romney: Jim, I had the great experience -- it didn't seem like it at the time -- of being elected in a state where my legislature was 87 percent Democrat. And that meant I figured out from day one I had to get along and I had to work across the aisle to get anything done. We drove our schools to be number one in the nation. We cut taxes 19 times. Governor Romney: 吉姆，我有一段了不起的经历——当时看来并非如此——我被选为一个州的州长，那里的州议会87%是民主党人。这意味着我从第一天起就知道我必须与人和睦相处，必须跨党派合作才能有所成就。我们使我们的学校成为全国第一。我们减税19次。
LEHRER: But what would you do as President? LEHRER: 但作为总统您会怎么做？
Governor Romney: We -- as President, I will sit on day one -- actually, the day after I get elected -- I'll sit down with leaders -- the Democratic leaders, as well as Republican leaders, and continue -- as we did in my state -- we met every Monday for a couple hours, talked about the issues and the challenges in the -- in the -- in our state in that case. We have to work on a collaborative basis, not because we're going to compromise our principle, but because there's common ground. Governor Romney: 作为总统，我将在第一天——实际上是我当选后的第二天——坐下来与民主党和共和党领导人一起，继续——就像我们在我的州所做的那样——我们每周一开几个小时会，讨论我们州的问题和挑战。我们必须在合作的基础上工作，不是因为我们打算放弃原则，而是因为我们有共同点。
And the challenges America faces right now -- look, the reason I'm in this race is there are people that are really hurting today in this country. And we face -- this deficit could crush the future generations. What's happening in the Middle East, there are developments around the world that are of real concern. 美国现在面临的挑战——听着，我参加这场竞选的原因是，这个国家现在有人真正在受苦。我们面临的——这个赤字可能压垮后代。中东正在发生的事情，以及世界各地的动态，都令人深感关切。
LEHRER: All right. LEHRER: 好的。
Governor Romney: And Republicans and Democrats both love America. But we need to have leadership -- leadership in Washington that will actually bring people together and get the job done and could not care less if -- if it's a Republican or a Democrat. I've done it before. I'll do it again. Governor Romney: 共和党人和民主党人都热爱美国。但我们需要领导力——华盛顿需要真正能把人们团结起来、完成工作、不在乎是共和党人还是民主党人的领导力。我以前做到过。我会再次做到。
LEHRER: Mr. President? LEHRER: 总统先生？
President Obama: Well, first of all, I think Governor Romney's going to have a busy first day, because he's also going to repeal Obamacare, which will not be very popular among Democrats as you're sitting down with them. President Obama: 首先，我认为罗姆尼州长第一天会很忙，因为他还要废除奥巴马医改，当您和民主党人坐下来谈的时候，这恐怕在民主党人中不会很受欢迎。
But, look, my philosophy has been, I will take ideas from anybody, Democrat or Republican, as long as they're advancing the cause of making middle-class families stronger and giving ladders of opportunity to the middle class. That's how we cut taxes for middle- class families and small businesses. That's how we cut a trillion dollars of spending that wasn't advancing that cause. That's how we signed three trade deals into law that are helping us to double our exports and sell more American products around the world. 但听着，我的理念一直是，我愿意接受任何人的想法，无论是民主党人还是共和党人，只要这些想法能推动让中产家庭更强大的事业，为中产阶级搭建机会的阶梯。这就是我们为中产家庭和小企业减税的方式。这就是我们削减一万亿美元无关支出的方式。这就是我们签署三项贸易法案的方式，这些法案帮助我们实现出口翻番，在世界各地销售更多美国产品。
That's how we repealed "don't ask/don't tell." That's how we ended the war in Iraq, as I promised, and that's how we're going to wind down the war in Afghanistan. That's how we went after Al Qaida and bin Laden. 这就是我们废除「不问不说」政策的方式。这就是我如承诺那样结束伊拉克战争的方式，也是我们将逐步结束阿富汗战争的方式。这就是我们追捕基地组织和本·拉登的方式。
So we've -- we've seen progress even under Republican control of the House of Representatives. But, ultimately, part of being principled, part of being a leader is, A, being able to describe exactly what it is that you intend to do, not just saying, "I'll sit down," but you have to have a plan. 所以我们——我们甚至在共和党控制众议院的情况下也取得了进展。但最终，坚持原则和作为领导者的一部分是，第一，能够准确描述你打算做什么，而不只是说「我会坐下来谈」，你必须有一个计划。
Number two, what's important is occasionally you've got to say no, to -- to -- to folks both in your own party and in the other party. And, you know, yes, have we had some fights between me and the Republicans when -- when they fought back against us reining in the excesses of Wall Street? Absolutely, because that was a fight that needed to be had. 第二，重要的是偶尔你不得不说「不」——对你自己政党和对方政党的人说不。而且，是的，当共和党人反对我们遏制华尔街的过度行为时，我和共和党人之间有没有发生争执？当然有，因为那是一场必须进行的斗争。
When -- when we were fighting about whether or not we were going to make sure that Americans had more security with their health insurance and they said no, yes, that was a fight that we needed to have. 当——当我们为是否确保美国人获得更多医疗保险保障而争辩，而他们说「不」的时候，是的，那是我们必须进行的一场斗争。
LEHRER: All right LEHRER: 好的。
President Obama: And so part of leadership and governing is both saying what it is that you are for, but also being willing to say no to some things. And I've got to tell you, Governor Romney, when it comes to his own party during the course of this campaign, has not displayed that willingness to say no to some of the more extreme parts of his party. President Obama: 因此，领导和治理的一部分既是要说明你支持什么，也是要愿意对某些事情说「不」。而且我必须告诉您，罗姆尼州长，在这次竞选过程中，面对自己政党时，他并没有表现出愿意对该党某些更极端的部分说「不」。
LEHRER: That brings us to closing statements. It was a coin toss. Governor Romney, you won the toss and you elected to go last, so you have a closing two minutes, Mr. President. LEHRER: 这就到了结束语环节。之前是掷硬币决定的。罗姆尼州长，您赢了掷硬币并选择最后发言，所以总统先生，您先有两分钟的结束语。
President Obama: Well, Jim, I want to thank you, and I want to thank Governor Romney, because I think was a terrific debate, and I very much appreciate it. And I want to thank the University of Denver. President Obama: 吉姆，我要感谢您，我也要感谢罗姆尼州长，因为我认为这是一场非常精彩的辩论，我深表感激。我还要感谢丹佛大学。
You know, four years ago, we were going through a major crisis. And yet my faith and confidence in the American future is undiminished. And the reason is because of its people, because of the woman I met in North Carolina who decided at 55 to go back to school because she wanted to inspire her daughter and now has a job from that new training that she's gotten; because a company in Minnesota who was willing to give up salaries and perks for their executives to make sure that they didn't lay off workers during a recession. 四年前，我们正在经历一场重大危机。然而我对美国未来的信心和信念丝毫未减。原因在于美国人民，在于我在北卡罗来纳州遇到的那位女士，她55岁时决定重返校园，因为她想激励她的女儿，如今她通过新获得的培训技能找到了工作；在于明尼苏达州的一家公司愿意放弃高管的薪水和福利，以确保在经济衰退期间不裁减工人。
The auto workers that you meet in Toledo or Detroit take such pride in building the best cars in the world, not just because of a paycheck, but because it gives them that sense of pride, that they're helping to build America. And so the question now is how do we build on those strengths. 你在托莱多或底特律遇到的汽车工人以制造世界上最好的汽车为荣，不仅因为一份薪水，更是因为这给了他们一种自豪感，觉得他们在帮助建设美国。所以现在的问题是，我们如何在这些优势基础上继续前进。
And everything that I've tried to do, and everything that I'm now proposing for the next four years in terms of improving our education system or developing American energy or making sure that we're closing loopholes for companies that are shipping jobs overseas and focusing on small businesses and companies that are creating jobs here in the United States, or closing our deficit in a responsible, balanced way that allows us to invest in our future. 我所尝试做的一切，以及我为未来四年所提议的一切——无论是改善教育体系、发展美国能源，还是确保堵住那些将工作岗位转移到海外的企业的漏洞，以及关注在美国本土创造就业的小企业和公司，或者以负责任、平衡的方式缩小赤字以使我们能够投资未来——
All those things are designed to make sure that the American people, their genius, their grit, their determination, is -- is channeled and -- and they have an opportunity to succeed. And everybody's getting a fair shot. And everybody's getting a fair share -- everybody's doing a fair share, and everybody's playing by the same rules. 所有这些都是为了确保美国人民的才华、毅力和决心得到——得到引导，并让他们拥有成功的机会。每个人都能获得公平的机会。每个人都在做出公平的贡献，每个人都遵守同样的规则。
You know, four years ago, I said that I'm not a perfect man and I wouldn't be a perfect President. And that's probably a promise that Governor Romney thinks I've kept. But I also promised that I'd fight every single day on behalf of the American people, the middle class, and all those who were striving to get into the middle class. I've kept that promise and if you'll vote for me, then I promise I'll fight just as hard in a second term. 四年前，我说过我不是一个完美的人，我也不会是一个完美的总统。这大概是罗姆尼州长认为我兑现了的承诺。但我也承诺过，我会每一天都为美国人民、为中产阶级、为所有努力跻身中产阶级的人而奋斗。我兑现了这个承诺，如果你们投票支持我，我保证在第二任期中我会同样努力地奋斗。
LEHRER: Governor Romney, your two-minute closing. LEHRER: 罗姆尼州长，您的两分钟结束语。
Governor Romney: Thank you, Jim, and Mr. President. And thank you for tuning in this evening. This is a -- this is an important election and I'm concerned about America. I'm concerned about the direction America has been taking over the last four years. Governor Romney: 谢谢您，吉姆，还有总统先生。感谢今晚收看节目。这是一场——这是一次重要的选举，我为美国感到忧虑。我对美国过去四年来的发展方向感到担忧。
I -- I know this is bigger than an election about the two of us as individuals. It's bigger than our respective parties. It's an election about the course of America. What kind of America do you want to have for yourself and for your children. And there really are two very different paths that we began speaking about this evening, and over the course of this month we're going to have two more Presidential debates and a vice Presidential debate. We're talk about those two paths. 我——我知道这次选举的意义超越了作为个人的你我之间的较量。它超越了各自的政党。这是一次关于美国未来方向的选举。你希望为自己和你的孩子拥有一个什么样的美国。今晚我们开始讨论了两条截然不同的道路，在本月我们还将有两场总统辩论和一场副总统辩论。我们将讨论这两条道路。
But they lead in very different directions. And it's not just looking to our words that you have to take in evidence of where they go. You can look at the record. 但它们通向截然不同的方向。你不能仅凭我们的话来判断它们通向何方。你可以看看过往的记录。
There's no question in my mind that if the President were to be reelected you'll continue to see a middle-class squeeze with incomes going down and prices going up. I'll get incomes up again. You'll see chronic unemployment. We've had 43 straight months with unemployment above 8 percent. If I'm President I will create -- help create 12 million new jobs in this country with rising incomes. 毫无疑问，如果总统连任，你们将继续看到中产阶级受到挤压，收入下降而物价上涨。我将让收入重新增长。你们将看到长期失业。我们已经连续43个月失业率超过8%。如果我当选总统，我将创造——帮助创造1200万个新就业岗位，并带来收入的增长。
If the President's reelected, Obamacare will be fully installed. In my view that's going to mean a whole different way of life for people who counted on the insurance plan they had in the past. Many will lose it. You're going to see health premiums go up by some $2,500 per family. 如果总统连任，奥巴马医改将全面实施。在我看来，这将意味着那些依赖过去保险计划的人将面临完全不同的生活方式。许多人将失去原有的保险。你们将看到每个家庭的健康保险费上涨约2,500美元。
If I'm elected we won't have Obama. We'll put in place the kind of principles that I put in place in my own state and allow each state to craft their own programs to get people insured and we'll focus on getting the cost of health care down. 如果我当选，我们不会有奥巴马医改。我们将实施我在自己州实施的那种原则，允许各州制定自己的计划来确保人民获得保险，我们将致力于降低医疗保健成本。
If the President were to be reelected you're going to see a $716 billion cut to Medicare. You'll have 4 million people who will lose Medicare Advantage. You'll have hospital and providers that'll no longer accept Medicare patients. I'll restore that $716 billion to Medicare. 如果总统连任，你们将看到联邦医疗保险被削减7160亿美元。将有400万人失去联邦医疗保险优势计划。医院和医疗提供者将不再接受联邦医疗保险患者。我将恢复那7160亿美元给联邦医疗保险。
And finally, military. The President's reelected you'll see dramatic cuts to our military. The secretary of defense has said these would be even devastating. I will not cut our commitment to our military. I will keep America strong and get America's middle class working again. Thank you, Jim. 最后，军事方面。总统连任的话，你们将看到我们的军队遭到大幅削减。国防部长说这些削减将是毁灭性的。我不会削减我们对军队的投入。我将保持美国的强大，让美国的中产阶级重新就业。谢谢您，吉姆。
LEHRER: Thank you, Governor. Thank you, Mr. President. The next debate will be the vice Presidential event on Thursday, October 11th at Centre College in Danville, Kentucky. For now, from the University of Denver, I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you, and good night. LEHRER: 谢谢您，州长。谢谢您，总统先生。下一场辩论将于10月11日星期四在肯塔基州丹维尔的中央学院举行副总统辩论。现在，从丹佛大学，我是吉姆·莱勒。谢谢大家，晚安。
