Lu Jian: Are you someone who especially strives for perfection? Would you call yourself a perfectionist?
Lei Jun: I think striving for perfection has a good side and a bad side. That can mean being very demanding of the people around you. They may think you are insensitive or wonder why you are so difficult.
Lu Jian: Are you like that?
Lei Jun: I was when I was young. When people first meet me now, they may find me easy to work with and very tolerant. I learned all of that later. Deep down, however, I am extremely exacting.
Lei Jun: I later realized that, because I was a programmer, my world contained only zero and one, right and wrong, black and white. People like that have great difficulty fitting into the world: something is either right or wrong. I eventually persuaded myself that the world is an analog signal. It has no zero and one, only values closer to zero or closer to one. I told myself that I had to accept imperfections and view the world with tolerance. There is no absolute right or absolute wrong. I spent a great deal of time changing myself.
Lu Jian: What motivated you to change your personality?
Lei Jun: If you do not change, the real world will batter you badly.
Lei Jun (archival clip): Over the past twenty years, I have used sixty or seventy mobile phones. If you sell through the internet but lack the fundamental skills, then talking about the "flying pig" theory really does make you an opportunist. Whatever Mi Fans like is our proper business. Always believe that something wonderful is about to happen. Only by achieving world-class quality do we have a chance to survive.
Lu Jian: Is that the Ninebot self-balancing scooter behind us?
Lei Jun: Yes. Those are its wheels. Stand it upright and it is a self-balancing scooter. The usual version has two wheels and is ridden standing up. Lay it down, buy this kit, attach the front wheel, and it becomes a go-kart.
Lu Jian: It is a Transformer. It absolutely cannot be driven on the road. It is mainly a toy. Come on, let us try it. Teach me. I bought a self-balancing scooter for my family, but never this "Transformer."
Lei Jun: This is the brake, and the right pedal is the accelerator.
Lu Jian: How many Xiaomi ecosystem companies are there like this one?
Lei Jun: Around 120.
Lu Jian: One hundred and twenty?
Lei Jun: Three of them are already publicly listed. Xiaomi's ecosystem is highly developed, and Xiaomi could not build it alone. We therefore helped more than one hundred entrepreneurs establish their own companies, and they have done well in recent years.
Lu Jian: Are all these from your personal collection? You cannot have used every one of them, surely.
Lei Jun: I have used every phone here, truly every one.
Lu Jian: Have you thought about what phones might become in the future?
Lei Jun: By now, I think the physical form of the phone is largely fixed, but what it contains will keep expanding, including its computing power and the strength of its camera. One day, the phone will become a close companion to each person. The future world will be centered on the phone, and we will use it to connect every device. What is the greatest benefit? You will discover that the smart home brings earthshaking changes to your life. That transformation is already advancing little by little.
Lu Jian: Do you think Xiaomi has anything disruptive in its DNA?
Lei Jun: It depends on how you look at it. Without question, over the past decade the Xiaomi model has helped propel Chinese manufacturing and Chinese industry as a whole.
Lu Jian: But I have heard that you do not like people calling you "Rebs," comparing you to Steve Jobs. Is that right?
Lei Jun: Honestly, I think Steve Jobs had an enormous impact on all humanity, and many people are his admirers. Admiring Jobs does not mean that you must become a second Steve Jobs. I often say that many people in today's startup world do not have Jobs's destiny, but they suffer from "Jobs syndrome." They think Jobs did nothing more than pursue perfection.
Lei Jun: In reality, building a product means balancing the pursuit of perfection with user needs and industrial realities. How do you create a successful product? We should learn from Jobs's spirit, but Steve Jobs was unique and is very difficult to replicate.
Lei Jun: In junior high and high school, I was an electronics enthusiast and assembled radios. I studied software at university and then did not touch any hardware for more than twenty years, but I remained an electronics enthusiast. I often took phones apart and repaired them for fun.
Lu Jian: You treated dismantling and repairing phones as entertainment?
Lei Jun: People ask why I was able to make hardware. I think interests are very important.
Lei Jun: Young people today should cultivate broad interests because they may unexpectedly prove useful later. When I returned to hardware at the age of forty, I had an exceptionally strong interest in it.
Lu Jian: What was the first mobile phone you used?
Lei Jun: My first was a Motorola brick phone. Thirty years ago, our company owned one, and all the young employees loved it.
Lu Jian: Thirty years ago, you must have just graduated from Wuhan University.
Lei Jun: After graduation, I worked for six months at a research institute under the Ministry of Aerospace Industry. I met Qiu Bojun at an exhibition, and he persuaded me to join him. At the end of 1991, I left the research institute for a private company. That was still a difficult decision for a young person at the time.
Lu Jian: I especially want to ask how Qiu Bojun spent a day persuading you. What did he say that led you to make such a major change?
Lei Jun: I loved programming at the time. I saw that Qiu Bojun had written a program like WPS and achieved so much with it. I thought that every young person carries many dreams, so I should give it a try. Perhaps I could become "the second Qiu Bojun."
Lei Jun: I assumed Kingsoft was a very large company. When I arrived, I discovered that I was its sixth employee.
Lu Jian: The "sixth man," as in basketball.
Lei Jun: Yes, the sixth person. After six months, I became a vice president and got to carry the brick phone. Whenever we went out for a meal, we had to bring the brick phone.
Lu Jian: At that time, people might afford to buy one but could not afford to use it. Some pooled their money to buy one, but the calling charges were extremely high.
Lei Jun: It was not only mobile calls that were expensive. I remember that installing a landline at home or in the office cost five thousand yuan. Five thousand yuan was an enormous amount then. Looking back, the progress in communications technology over these thirty years and the mass adoption of smartphones were truly unimaginable.
Lu Jian: You keep yourself in excellent shape. I know you love skiing and must be a devoted skier.
Lei Jun: I have skied for fifteen years. At ski resorts around the world, I have skied at many resorts.
Lu Jian: Around the world? Then you must have visited many countries, such as Germany and Switzerland.
Lei Jun: Yes, I have been to most of them.
Lu Jian: How much time do you set aside each year?
Lei Jun: I am usually very busy, so I generally find a good resort somewhere in the world during the Spring Festival holiday.
Lu Jian: How long do you go for?
Lei Jun: Usually eight or nine days.
Lu Jian: I am particularly bad at it. I like playing football, but when I tried skiing, I remember rolling straight down the beginner slope.
Lei Jun: Many people like skiing now. It is easy to become addicted once you learn.
Lu Jian: When you ski or ride a bicycle, what do you usually think about?
Lei Jun: Honestly, once you become immersed in exercise, you think about nothing. An entrepreneur probably needs some time to empty the mind because our normal work is very stressful.
Lu Jian: You seem to have a bit of a cold today. Do you usually stay up late? You do not strike me as someone who would.
Lei Jun: I actually go to bed quite late, usually at one or two in the morning. In the internet and technology industry, that is normal.
Lu Jian: You still seem to stay quite healthy.
Lei Jun: Exercise is necessary.
Lu Jian: A few days ago, I saw an interesting post you wrote on Weibo. You quoted Wang Guowei's "three stages," and many people asked which stage you have reached.
Lei Jun: I think I am still in the process of seeking.
Lu Jian: "My clothes grow loose, yet I have no regrets, for her I grow worn and pale." When will you reach the stage of "suddenly turning back to find her there where the lantern lights are dim"?
Lei Jun: Perhaps when the Xiaomi model is truly accepted worldwide. We have only been working for ten years, and many people still do not understand us. Fully understanding Xiaomi is not easy.
Lu Jian: People often like to compare Xiaomi with Apple.
Lei Jun: There are many, many misconceptions about Xiaomi. I think that once people fully understand Xiaomi, they may understand the great undertaking we are pursuing. Through our own efforts, I hope everyone in the world can enjoy, on an equal basis, the better life that technology brings. We consistently emphasize a relationship with users that is like friendship. We want to bring users in and make these products together with them. That is what Xiaomi tirelessly pursues.
Lei Jun: How did Xiaomi, an outsider, reach a world-class level in this field? People may notice more of what Xiaomi does poorly, but the industry we chose is extraordinarily difficult. People constantly compare you with Huawei. Can you understand that? We have two good friends, and both are very strong.
Lu Jian: Exactly.
Lei Jun: By comparison, Xiaomi is still immature and needs more time. I tell people to be patient.
Narrator: On July 9, 2018, Xiaomi completed its initial public offering on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange. Eight years earlier, Lei Jun had a bold idea: make phones through an internet-based model, improve the global image of Chinese products, and benefit everyone in the world. Internet thinking built around information exchange and knowledge sharing was changing Chinese manufacturing. Despite the broader market environment, Xiaomi's smartphone shipments grew against the trend and entered the global top four. Its phones ranked among the top five in fifty countries and regions.
Lei Jun: International markets now account for about half of Xiaomi's revenue. We often say that overseas markets involve great uncertainty. Especially in 2020, some events could have been disastrous for a company. Were you ever worried?
Lei Jun: Yes. Our solution is "move steadily to go far": fully account for risk and advance in a steady, deliberate way. In global markets, if we want to help advance human civilization, we must view today's complex world with an inclusive attitude.
Lu Jian: Is "move steadily to go far" your personal philosophy? You strike me as an especially steady person.
Lei Jun: Honestly, people's assessments of me are divided between two extremes. One view is that I am highly aggressive.
Lu Jian: Do you have an aggressive side?
Lei Jun: It is extreme aggressiveness within extreme conservatism.
Lu Jian: That sounds contradictory.
Lei Jun: When risk is controllable, Xiaomi advances extremely quickly. When we think risk is uncontrollable, we are very cautious.
Lei Jun: Xiaomi was founded in 2010 and entered the Fortune Global 500 in 2019, after only nine years. Xiaomi now offers a dazzling range of products. When we believe the overall risk is controllable, we move very quickly. Faced with today's uncertainty, however, we emphasize stability.
Lei Jun: We now pay attention to global politics and economics, and almost wish we could track the weather, every disaster, the pandemic, and exchange rates. Every day, there are many times more things to watch than before.
Lu Jian: What was the greatest adversity you have faced?
Lei Jun: There have been quite a few setbacks over these thirty years. Our first came in 1996, when we faced "Microsoft in front and piracy behind." Even a company as capable as Kingsoft fell into crisis. We nearly closed and almost failed to make payroll. The failure of Pangu Suite was an enormous setback for me, and anxiety kept me awake every night.
Lei Jun: After that setback, I became exceptionally attentive to cash flow. I never wanted to face a second occasion when I could not pay salaries. At every company for which I am responsible, I care greatly about accumulating cash. If there is not enough cash on the books, we absolutely do not buy buildings or launch extravagant ventures; we accumulate cash. From that perspective, we are extremely conservative.
Lu Jian: But if you are too conservative and cautious, you may also miss opportunities. What do you think was the greatest opportunity you missed?
Lei Jun: While we were cultivating our plot in software, the internet era arrived without our noticing, and we almost missed it entirely. Sometimes you must not only keep your head down and pull the cart, but also look up at the road. We did not launch Joyo.com until 2000. In practical terms, we had largely missed the opportunity because all we built was Joyo. After Kingsoft went public in 2007, I took some time to recover and reflected on where exactly we had gone wrong.
Lei Jun: You have to move with the prevailing trend. Every major success is really determined by its era. When an entrepreneur succeeds, we may elevate that person into a legend and assume it was all due to personal greatness. It was not. The era made it possible. Great achievements are made by their times. That is why I later said that when a typhoon comes, even a pig can fly. An entrepreneur's task is to find such a "typhoon outlet." That is the most important factor in success.
Lei Jun: Of course, many people may call Lei Jun an opportunist. What I mean is that after you have built a strong foundation, finding the "typhoon outlet" is the key to success. That was the conclusion I reached at forty, after working for twenty years.
Lu Jian: At your fortieth birthday dinner, many friends and colleagues from Kingsoft gathered, but you still had not worked it out. What factor, or what particular moment, suddenly made you decide to found Xiaomi?
Lei Jun: As I approached forty, I once woke from a dream and thought about how I had wanted to build a great company and do something great. Yet at forty, I felt I had accomplished nothing.
Lu Jian: Accomplished nothing at forty while holding a large amount of cash? That counts as nothing?
Lei Jun: Yes. An ordinary person cannot understand that. Once, when I told this truth, people condemned me harshly.
Lei Jun: But it depends on what you pursue. If you have wanted since childhood to build a great enterprise, then reach forty and feel that you have not become great, the frustration within you is extremely strong. I asked myself whether I still had the courage and resolve to start again.
Lei Jun: Many people think Xiaomi happened by accident. In fact, Xiaomi was created after precise planning. You must work hard to see ten years into the future. I often tell them that you must reach the summit. You must climb to the top and look out over the entire world from there, viewing it from a God's-eye perspective. Then you will understand the shape of the future.
Lei Jun (archival clip): The year 2020 was extremely difficult for every one of us. The world faced many challenges, and this period of global upheaval profoundly affected each person's life. Faced with today's complex situation, where do we go in the future? Our answer is to move steadily so that we can go far. I believe smart living will thoroughly affect every one of us, while smart manufacturing will further support the rise of Chinese brands. Xiaomi will become a long, surging river, winding through the happier lives of people around the world.
Lu Jian: I remember that before moving into this campus, you buried a time capsule here, right? It seems to contain a sentence: "Always believe that something wonderful is about to happen." Is that also your personal philosophy?
Lei Jun: It is one of Xiaomi's slogans. You must have hope for the future. You must be confident and optimistic. I think this is an important part of Xiaomi's culture: looking optimistically at tomorrow and at the future.
Lu Jian: What will Xiaomi look like ten years from now?
Lei Jun: Honestly, today's Xiaomi is what I foresaw ten years ago. I think it may take another ten years for people to truly know and recognize Xiaomi. On the one hand, we have to make products well, which is already difficult. We must also make them affordable, which is even harder. After we accomplish something so difficult, people may still assume that low prices mean poor quality. We therefore have to endure many difficulties, prejudices, and all kinds of slander. We are walking a very rugged road.
Lu Jian: Do you know what was put in that time capsule?
Lei Jun: No.
Lu Jian: Even you do not know?
Lei Jun: We buried the wishes, dreams, and goals of all our colleagues for Xiaomi twenty years in the future.
Lu Jian: It was buried in September 2019, so the answer cannot be revealed until 2039. Will Xiaomi become the kind of company that changes the world?
Lei Jun: Xiaomi is already changing the world. After ten years of joint effort by Xiaomi and many of our peers, I think Chinese products are now in the process of being recognized and respected around the world.
Lu Jian: We often say that at thirty, a person stands firm; at forty, one is free of doubts; and at fifty, one knows destiny. Each stage may bring its own understanding. In December 2019, you celebrated your fiftieth birthday. I heard it was a simple occasion, held in the office rather than at home. Is that right?
Lei Jun: Reaching fifty was quite frightening because you cannot face the fact that you are already old. You truly cannot face it. At least I could not. At fifty, you have grown old. At forty, you do not think that way. You feel that your possibilities are still unlimited.
Lei Jun: My strongest realization in 2019 was this: if we want to make Xiaomi a great enterprise, how can we create a sensible mechanism that turns this platform into a platform for more people and better supports the young? We have to admit that we are fifty.
Lu Jian: Have you thought about retirement?
Lei Jun: I considered the question at fifty. When Xiaomi had been operating for only two or three years, retirement was especially fashionable among entrepreneurs. Many reporters asked me, "Mr. Lei, when will you retire?" I felt terribly wronged. I said, "Do you know that I was laid off and reemployed? I finally found a job and have worked for only two or three years, and you are already asking when I will retire?" It made me furious.
Lei Jun: When you ask me that question today, there is only one condition that determines whether I consider retirement: does the company still need me? Do I need the company, or does the company need me? When the company no longer needs me, that will be the time for me to retire.
Lu Jian: At the age when one is said to know destiny, what birthday wish did you make?
Lei Jun: To do ten things I want to do, with a written plan.
Lu Jian: Have you made the list?
Lei Jun: Yes.
Lu Jian: But you will not tell us?
Lei Jun: If I fail to do them, it would be embarrassing.
Lu Jian: Ten years to do the ten things you most want to do. Can you reveal even one or two?
Lei Jun: I am learning how to write programs again. Today's programming languages are completely different. I have started learning again, truly from zero. Ten years from now, perhaps I will have the chance to share them with you one by one.
